Time we protected our players against International call up? | Vital Football

Time we protected our players against International call up?

Spursex

Spursex

Alert Team
Yesterday, I had a mini debate with Muttley - and I now think it's worthy of a fuller debate and it's own thread - we've all seen club after club have 'judicial' injuries that mysteriously seem to clear up as soon as an International break is over...

What do you think?

Here are the posts that sparked the mini debate between myself and Muttley..




.......

I paraphrase:

We desperately need a fit Victor and Winks, let alone anyone else.

A sign of mental and physical fatigue is inconsistency and poor decision making - and I saw that aplenty on Sunday.

Poch has to fugure out how he steps it up - in normal circumstances at this point in the season you could start considering the new players you've brought in to up the dynamic - but that's not really an option, so we have to hope that the international break gives some recovery time to a few.

And if I were Poch, I'd be urging all my internationals to report with injuries that need to keep them on the sidelines.

I see Sterling has already played that card.

Alli, Harry, Trips and even Dier should be doing the same.

[IMG]https://1164741873.rsc.cdn77.org/data/avatars/m/4/4886.jpg?1522872310[/IMG]


muttley
Vital Reserves Team




Yesterday at 2:41 PM
#238




Spursex said:


And if I were Poch, I'd be urging all my internationals to report with injuries that need to keep them on the sidelines.

I see Sterling has already played that card.

Alli, Harry, Trips and even Dier should be doing the same.

Muttley replied:

Not to pick on you Ex, but it saddens me when I read the bashing of the International game. I'm the first to lay into the FA, UEFA and FIFA for some of the things they've done over the years. I will applaud UEFA though for creating the Nations League and setting up a new competitive format that allows England to scrap some of the "pointless friendlies" and instead play games against top nations like Spain and Croatia. This can only help our international game and prepare us for major competitions IF we take it seriously.

Quite frankly, if any England player is feigning injury just to stay fit for his club then I don't want them representing my country. In Sterling's case, I'd be pretty certain that isn't the case. He is always patriotic and has immense pride in playing for his country. Ditto with all the Spurs boys.

Slightly different with Tuesday's game against Switzerland where Southgate should be using that as a genuine friendly to try some Plan B stuff. With Vardy's retirement, surely his number 1 priority should be finding a backup to Kane, so resting his captain should be a genuine option. It would also be fair for a club manager to pass the analytics of the physical state of the players to the international manager so he can make informed decision on the starting elevens / subs etc, but only in the friendlies.

Ultimately, I'd love to see more space created in the football calendar. I'd also like to see International Football back where it belongs. Ultimately, that probably means football pushing back on the money men and getting the top flight leagues down to 16 or 18 clubs only with winter breaks. There will be the downstream impacts of that of course and it would probably require a Premiership 2 and redistribution of the monies.

Wouldn't it be great to see kids idolising their club and international football teams like we did in our younger days? For me, I was the generation after the 66 winning side but still got what it meant to be Bobby Moore holding the WC aloft. I loved watching Spurs greats like Hoddle, Gazza, Waddle, Lineker in England colours and still love watching the current Spurs boys represent their country. I'm guessing I'm becoming a rare breed !!!

I replied...

It's OK Muttley, I don't mind being picked on. And I understand why.

Bottom line is I pretty much attend all the England home internationals and have been an avid supporter of International football forever.

However, after the travails of the World Cup and the start of the new season I actually think having a new highly competitive competition isn't smart - players aren't machines.

In this case I would prefer friendlies where it is not that meaningful to allow the manager to make simple 'try them out' choices instead of immediately being in a new high pressure media situation all over again.

For me this is just another governing body money raising gimmick that we didn't and don't need in an already crowded calendar.

Our players, given that so many are in the England set-up (and of course others) are going to be played into the ground if we are not careful.

As for Sterling (and others) I do think that managers and players have often had 'luckily time' short term injuries that have helped them in the PL...maybe we now need to act just as cynically?

And sadly, I do think this is one of those times that after our last performance I'd like to see Poch use it to the max - I've never seen us toil so much, look so heavy legged and struggle so much with the physical aspects of the game as I saw at first hand on Sunday, because of our lack of workrate, defenders got collectovely caught out and struggled to recover or get on the front foot - they just looked shattered.

We looked dead on our feet and everything looked like a struggle - and much of that I honestly think could be down to fatigue and being over-played and not having a long enough break.

I didn't think it would hit so soon, but Sunday it looked just like that, almost everyone was blowing hard when Watford players seemed to find a second wind.

Maybe it's just too much partying after the manure result - (but I doubt that), although the way Lloris came unstuck - is I am told, could well have been the story of a good few of our players.....
 
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Thanks Ex....btw, here's what I just posted on the Harry thread......

Agree that Kane should play Sat, but not Tuesday.

The U21's have Solanke, Calvert-Lewin, Lookman and Abraham so promote one and have a look at them in the senior setup. Are UEFA U21 qualifiers more important than the seniors nowadays?

Then you have Callum Wilson, Daniel Sturridge and Jay Rodriguez to call upon. Rodriguez and Wilson in the goals. Sturridge in great form in pre-season and has won Klopp over for now.

Also, where is the game on Tuesday? King Power Stadium Leicester. Who is their favourite son who said he was only a phone call away from helping Southgate out. For me, it would be time to get Vardy out on that pitch and let the England fans sing his name one last time before retiring.
 
Take them all off the England roster, now.

As much as players seem superhuman, they are not. Critical fatigue could lead to devastating injuries which would jeopardise their careers for club and country.

Southgate and Poch are both morons for not seeing it.
 
Pollo said:
Take them all off the England roster, now.

As much as players seem superhuman, they are not. Critical fatigue could lead to devastating injuries which would jeopardise their careers for club and country.

Southgate and Poch are both morons for not seeing it.
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I tend to agree, we're looked very naive now.
 
I do care about my countries international football team. No matter how compulsive your club side winning is, a successful national side boost the game like nothing else. That's the disclaimer out the way. However we have to look after our players because right now we are getting mugged off. The same pundits who were convinced it was "coming home" line up to laugh that we are congenital losers and bottlers. Our squad (part design part bad buys) is small. Injuries to key personnel have exacerbated this. Make no mistake failure to make top four will seriously set the club back the extra finance with stadium costs have become paramount to our progression. We can't afford more injuries to key personnel to undermine us. Kane is suffering as in my oppinion are Delle and Christian. We need Mopo to get very tough with respective national coaches. Oh and FFS buy some players in Jan!
 
spurdon said:
I do care about my countries international football team. No matter how compulsive your club side winning is, a successful national side boost the game like nothing else. That's the disclaimer out the way. However we have to look after our players because right now we are getting mugged off. The same pundits who were convinced it was "coming home" line up to laugh that we are congenital losers and bottlers. Our squad (part design part bad buys) is small. Injuries to key personnel have exacerbated this. Make no mistake failure to make top four will seriously set the club back the extra finance with stadium costs have become paramount to our progression. We can't afford more injuries to key personnel to undermine us. Kane is suffering as in my oppinion are Delle and Christian. We need Mopo to get very tough with respective national coaches. Oh and FFS buy some players in Jan!
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No disclaimers here - fuck the national team.

We sent almost our entire squad to the WC, and our English lads were the core of the national team. Whilst tolerating stupid friendlies right after the season ended, we need to set something clear - it's club above country.

Obviously FIFA doesn't care about players and wants and increased piece of the pie through dumb tournaments. This endangers our players, which we buy and pay wages for. What do we get in return? Nothing pretty much, 3 million for the summer, pathetic, and we have to deal with injuries and potential loss of competitiveness in all the cups. How is that right?

The FA isn't doing anything to help, and is biting the hand that feeds it. They should clearly understand the damage this is causing and focus Southgate on the Euros/WC, but they're not.

To paraphrase Kennedy, FIFA/FA are pretty much saying:
"Ask not what your national team can do for your club, as what your club can do for your national team'.

Fuck that, fuck FIFA, and fuck the national team.
 
Crazy to have this tournament so soon after the WC. Treat with the contempt it deserves. Should be for any fringe players who didn't make the WC at best.
 
Seeing how driven kane is, do you really think poch is going to tell him to decline england duty and he will listen?

Kane wants to be englands top scorer so will play when he can. I have no problem with him playing saturday in the Nations League but i really dont see why we are playing a meaningless friendly 3 days later.

Hope all are rested for the second game.
 
Love the fact that some seem to imply that it is the 12% of England games and not the 88% of Spurs games that is killing Kane. Yes, I checked over a full 2 year cycle.

Also, if the toughest part of any game on the body is the last 15 minutes including injury time, how many times has Harry been withdrawn before the end of games? Haven't checked, but probably less than 10%, including when we're a couple of goals up. Poch needs to change that, like he did at OT recently.

Will push back on some of you here. It's not the international schedule that is taking it's toll on Harry or any of our players. That change of scenery is probably as good as a rest in some ways. It's our transfer policy and inability to find players like Kane true competition and backup in a 5 year period. I'll go as far to say that he's one of only 2 or 3 players that we continually rush back from injury. The worrying thing is that he's not at 100% for England either.

Taricco - great point. Harry is old school. He knows what it means to wear the England shirt and pull on the armband. I'd love to see anyone try and stop him representing his country.

As for the rest of the England Spurs boys, I'm only really worried about Dele. That's more of the expectation on him versus the impact to his body. We also overplay Dele, but like Eriksen he is more of a natural athlete than Kane. I don't really see Dier, Trips and Rose as England regulars anyway. Shaw will be the regular LB whilst Trips has had his purple patch and will find it tough to stay in the side with Walker and Trent playing there. Dier will always be in and out.

Ultimately, I'm looking back at Levy and Poch here. Either get the right personnel in the squad to keep our players fresh (as opposed to waste of spaces like Llorente) or trust the players like Son, Moura, Lamela to lead the line without Kane. We've seen that work well at times but don't use it enough.

Finally, if you don't think Spurs are willing to push back on country's FA's, do some digging on Kenya and Wanyama. In the spring he was allowed to play one of two games and had to come home early. At the start of the summer, whilst he played our last 2 league games, we told the Kenyan FA that he needed rest all summer. Even though he was in this last squad at the weekend, we've once again told their FA he's unavailable. He's their captain !!! Spurs will absolutely hold the tough stance if it is not in our best interests.
 
If Harry wants to play for England no matter how uninportant the game is, then let him. He has that status now that he can decide himself. If the club starts playing mummy then he probably wont have that loyality feeling anymore and start to think that an other club wouldnt bother him with that (Real Madrid with Ronaldo for example). We are talking about someone who can score in every game and is hunting for glory doing so (golden boots, records). Trying to pull him out of games will not make him happy. We can only hope that he stays happy at spurs given the circumstances that we are a club who dont put the money where the mouth is.
 
muttley said:
Love the fact that some seem to imply that it is the 12% of England games and not the 88% of Spurs games that is killing Kane. Yes, I checked over a full 2 year cycle.

Also, if the toughest part of any game on the body is the last 15 minutes including injury time, how many times has Harry been withdrawn before the end of games? Haven't checked, but probably less than 10%, including when we're a couple of goals up. Poch needs to change that, like he did at OT recently.

Will push back on some of you here. It's not the international schedule that is taking it's toll on Harry or any of our players. That change of scenery is probably as good as a rest in some ways. It's our transfer policy and inability to find players like Kane true competition and backup in a 5 year period. I'll go as far to say that he's one of only 2 or 3 players that we continually rush back from injury. The worrying thing is that he's not at 100% for England either.

Taricco - great point. Harry is old school. He knows what it means to wear the England shirt and pull on the armband. I'd love to see anyone try and stop him representing his country.

As for the rest of the England Spurs boys, I'm only really worried about Dele. That's more of the expectation on him versus the impact to his body. We also overplay Dele, but like Eriksen he is more of a natural athlete than Kane. I don't really see Dier, Trips and Rose as England regulars anyway. Shaw will be the regular LB whilst Trips has had his purple patch and will find it tough to stay in the side with Walker and Trent playing there. Dier will always be in and out.

Ultimately, I'm looking back at Levy and Poch here. Either get the right personnel in the squad to keep our players fresh (as opposed to waste of spaces like Llorente) or trust the players like Son, Moura, Lamela to lead the line without Kane. We've seen that work well at times but don't use it enough.

Finally, if you don't think Spurs are willing to push back on country's FA's, do some digging on Kenya and Wanyama. In the spring he was allowed to play one of two games and had to come home early. At the start of the summer, whilst he played our last 2 league games, we told the Kenyan FA that he needed rest all summer. Even though he was in this last squad at the weekend, we've once again told their FA he's unavailable. He's their captain !!! Spurs will absolutely hold the tough stance if it is not in our best interests.
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No one is saying, or at least I'm not, that it's the England games in isolation.

I know from when I played that playing continuously became debilitating - going on tour when others are resting/recuperating has a debilitating effect on performance - study after study confirms this.

The effects of long term playing at PL level is a massive strain on your body, your joints, carrying injuries, your whole physical and even physiological system reacts in differential manner and that eventually impairs performance - which is compounded by playing through or too quickly after injury.

Playing another competitive set of matches after playing a tournament at the end of an intensive PL season is utterly nuts and shows the governing bodies have a complete disregard for the well-being of the players - and no giving a hoot to the strains this places on the clubs.

At least at very very long last the issue of continuous playing has been partially recognised and we will from next season finally after years of refusing to accept the overwhelming evidence of continuous playing damage it causes, we are going to have a winter break.

I really do think this Nations league is nothing more than another money grabbing exercise and is another tournament too far..
 
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Spursex said:
No one is saying, or at least I'm not, that it's the England games in isolation.

I know from when I played that playing continuously became debilitating - going on tour when others are resting/recuperating has a debilitating effect on performance - study after study confirms this.

The effects of long term playing at PL level is a massive strain on your body, your joints, carrying injuries, your whole physical and even physiological system reacts in differential manner and that eventually impairs performance - which is compounded by playing through or too quickly after injury.

Playing another competitive set of matches after playing a tournament at the end of an intensive PL season is utterly nuts and shows the governing bodies have a complete disregard for the well-being of the players - and no giving a hoot to the strains this places on the clubs.

At least at very very long last the issue of continuous playing has been partially recognised and we will from next season finally after years of refusing to accept the overwhelming evidence of continuous playing damage it causes, we are going to have a winter break.

I really do think this Nations league is nothing more than another money grabbing exercise and is another tournament too far..
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I believe the 4 Nations League matches over 2 international dates between now and the new year would have been just fine. Spanning them over 3 different dates in Sep, Oct and Nov and then wrapping more pointless friendlies like Switzerland and USA is the issue.

I also don't think the Nations League is a pointless comp. Just the usual nonsense with FIFA running the World Cup, UEFA running The Euro's including Nations League and our own FA maximising their revenues from places like Wembley. Clearly, the governing bodies are operating with slightly different charters.
 
I assumed it was cynical personally, and Poch told him to take the week off to rest.

If Sonny isn't completely ruined I'd suggest if Dele isn't fit that we could put out a pretty strong attacking lineup with Son and Lucas either side of Kane. Maybe with Dembele, Eriksen and Wanyama as the midfield 3.

Torn between Toby and Sanchez for this one. Leaning towards Sanchez's pace but obviously Toby is Toby so it's a tough call.
 
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