Tick Tock! | Page 7 | Vital Football

Tick Tock!

Roy Race said:
Looking at those figures not sure Rowett's win ratio is 52%.
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I cut and pasted Hughtons layout and updated the individual figures and must have forgotten to change that number - apologies.

But the correct figure TB pointed out is just under 12% higher than Cooks - so the point remains.

I don't like blind faith or gut feeling as a reason to keep a manager - i go off performances and signs of improvement - both of which have been in far too short supply over the last 12 months.

I dont see why any club would gamble keeping a manager like Cook on the off chance he defies the odds if we could pick up proven better in Hughton or Monk. I think we'd have a good chance of getting both - neither will get a Prem job at the moment, so they need to drop into the Championshi with IEC's ambition and the fact Monk took the Birmingham job which was drastically less attractive under the financial restrictions they faced at the time and Hughton was wanted the Wigan job when we were in crisis and we picked Malky and then took the Brighton job when they were in deep relegation battle and l think we could tempt them. But i suspect Hudderfield and Stoke will go for the pair as soon as they make the impending change. So i'd get cracking before they are off the market and we miss this exceptional opporunity to make a safe as you can get step up apointment.
 
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I understand the reason for the comparison of win% but surely there can be no true comparison made. The variables for a true comparison are too many, quality of player, transfer/operating budgets, etc. I would have thought for instance that a lot of the games that Hughton has managed were with Newcastle where in the 2009-10 season he had 30 wins as they won the league and were promoted, having been relegated the season before. A big club with a massive budget compared to the clubs that Cook has managed, including ourselves, and a playing staff of mainly premier league players. His other clubs were Norwich, Birmingham and Brighton, all of which i would say have larger budgets than us.

I suppose the point I am making is that to compare Hughton with Cook is like comparing chalk and cheese and it makes me wonder if Hughton had had the same budget to work within how his ratio would stand up.

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I think the more interesting figures are the Loss% of the managers you mention for the championship.

Paul Cook. 46%
Gary Rowett 26.6%
Chris Hughton 18.4%
Gary Monk 32.53%

Of the four Paul Cook loses almost 1 in every 2 games, Rowett 1 in 4 ,Monk 1 in 3 and Hughton is better than 1 in 5. Quite a startling difference.
 
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king_dezeeuw06 said:
I

I don't like blind faith or gut feeling as a reason to keep a manager

I dont see why any club would gamble keeping a manager like Cook on the off chance he defies the odds if we could
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The counter argument would be it's not "blind faith" to keep a manager who has achieved what he was asked to do in both seasons he's been at the club. If he had failed to get us promoted and then failed again in his second season and we kept him that would be blind faith.

On the second point of defying the odds isn't that part of the club mantra? apparently "its in our DNA";)
 
In this league, I feel how a Manager sets up his team, and the mentality of staff plays a huge factor in success than in the premier league.

Look at Hudderfield, Norwich, Sheffield Utd in recent years. Shrewed business, set-up, and most importantly management.

Just in my opinion, I don't feel money plays a huge game changing factor than it actually does on the front of things, if it did than Leeds, Derby, Forest, and Middlesbrough would of been promoted years ago. And lets not forget the Wigan-esque downfall of Stoke City currently.

Cook should be more confident going at teams, and not resorting to shakey hit and hope hoof-ball, the teams in this league are good, but if you are always spouting how good these teams are, then our players are not going to be filled with much confidence.

Every game is winnable in this league, regardless of transfer spend, so we(like most teams around us) should go out to win every game home and away.
 
FrancosLoveChild said:
In this league, I feel how a Manager sets up his team, and the mentality of staff plays a huge factor in success than in the premier league.

Look at Hudderfield, Norwich, Sheffield Utd in recent years. Shrewed business, set-up, and most importantly management.

Just in my opinion, I don't feel money plays a huge game changing factor than it actually does on the front of things, if it did than Leeds, Derby, Forest, and Middlesbrough would of been promoted years ago. And lets not forget the Wigan-esque downfall of Stoke City currently.

Cook should be more confident going at teams, and not resorting to shakey hit and hope hoof-ball, the teams in this league are good, but if you are always spouting how good these teams are, then our players are not going to be filled with much confidence.

Every game is winnable in this league, regardless of transfer spend, so we(like most teams around us) should go out to win every game home and away.
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Couldn't agree more.
 
FrancosLoveChild said:
In this league, I feel how a Manager sets up his team, and the mentality of staff plays a huge factor in success than in the premier league.

Look at Hudderfield, Norwich, Sheffield Utd in recent years. Shrewed business, set-up, and most importantly management.

Just in my opinion, I don't feel money plays a huge game changing factor than it actually does on the front of things, if it did than Leeds, Derby, Forest, and Middlesbrough would of been promoted years ago. And lets not forget the Wigan-esque downfall of Stoke City currently.

Cook should be more confident going at teams, and not resorting to shakey hit and hope hoof-ball, the teams in this league are good, but if you are always spouting how good these teams are, then our players are not going to be filled with much confidence.

Every game is winnable in this league, regardless of transfer spend, so we(like most teams around us) should go out to win every game home and away.
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To be fair out of the 4 league games we've played this season we've not been negative, we've just not been very good. Cardiff game we attacked. Preston, we couldn't tell because we were 1-0 down too soon. Leeds we attacked but the sending off killed the game. We did go for it at Middlesbrough from the off on Tuesday with effectively 3 up front and wing backs pushed on for the first 20 mins and should have taken the lead. It was only in the second half we started to go long as we got more and more desperate.
 
Roy Race said:
If I had the time (and could be arsed) I would. The stats are on Wikipedia so not hard to check. Maybe KDZ could rustle something up.

Incidentally, a simple check on Wikipedia also shows that ON PAPER, over their respective careers Cook also has better records than Moyes, Poyet, Pulis, Adkins, Bruce, Karanka, Hughes and Adkins.

Obviously it's very difficult to compare as all these managers have managed at different levels, had different financial backing, had good/bad squads. We all have views on whether each manager has done a good job but when you look at it in black and white you'd be surprised to see the figures for some. Just helps add to the debate I think.
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As an illogical idiot. I must say it takes one to see one. You admit towards the end of your nonsense that the figures are not like for like. Now, based on your extensive studies with Wikipedia that ‘On Paper’ Cook is the best manager to have ever managed a football team.
Keep dreaming.
 
strapworld said:
As an illogical idiot. I must say it takes one to see one. You admit towards the end of your nonsense that the figures are not like for like. Now, based on your extensive studies with Wikipedia that ‘On Paper’ Cook is the best manager to have ever managed a football team.
Keep dreaming.
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Thanks for the compliment. Please to meet you too. Where did I say Cook is the "best manager"? Just thrown in some stats which I found surprising and just explained the caveat.

The figures are accurate, KDZ used them also.

;)
 
Roy Race said:
The counter argument would be it's not "blind faith" to keep a manager who has achieved what he was asked to do in both seasons he's been at the club. If he had failed to get us promoted and then failed again in his second season and we kept him that would be blind faith.

On the second point of defying the odds isn't that part of the club mantra? apparently "its in our DNA";)
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We've had 50 games at this level under Cook, more than half of them have been utterly awful performances. I think you look at performances, tactics, ability to learn, signs of improvement etc and that tells you the real story - i can't see the evidence that Cook is improving and he's not entertaining us on a weekly basis with spirited loses but attractive football and he's not playing ugly football and winning - it's generally poor on all fronts. Under Cook we turn in a show stopping performance every now and again and if it was like that all the time we wouldn't have the discussion but those are more the exception than the rule and the majority of the time it's not very good. I think we've seen enough to know the tragectory and like i say we have a prime opportunity that we may lose if we don't act now to get one of 2 excellent managers who would almost certainly do a better job - there is no safe bet in football but at this level they are as safe as you can get.

I dont want to be on here at the end of Sept and people saying 'i know it's rubbish but if we sack Cook who would we get in there are no good options' after we wait and Hughton and Monk go elsewhere. Would anyone without any sense of personal attachment rate Cook over Hughton or Monk? Would any club looking for a new manager at this level have Cook on a short list and would they likely have Hughton and Monk on that list? I think it's prudent to make the move now and push the boat out as much as reuquired to get one of those 2 before they are no longer available as it is an undoubtedly a big improvement on what we have.

We are at the point though where defying the odds in Cooks case is not so much doing something any manager would find tough - it's doing something any half decent manager would do - not underperforming the majority of the time and not losing 90% of your away games. We've got a decent squad for me but not a decent manager.
 
Zeb2 said:
Think he was having a pop at Moonay, Roy
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I think he was too ......... but the self proclaimed "illogical idiot" (cos no-one called him that) replied to the wrong post !

Just like no-one has proclaimed Cook to be the best etc etc.
:rolleyes:
 
Roy Race said:
We will see, the last few performances have been very poor but so far he's been asked to.......

Season 1 - Get us up - done!
Season 2 - Keep us up - done!
Season 3 - Mid table - Let's see
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Mid table will be a big ask. Remember we had James last season and Powell.
I reckon we may just scrape survival but it will be down to the wire and we may have to call on lady luck like last season.
 
FrancosLoveChild said:
In this league, I feel how a Manager sets up his team, and the mentality of staff plays a huge factor in success than in the premier league.
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Very good point. I dont know how much my memories playing tricks on me but I don't remember Jewell being a tactical mastermind. We just used to go full pelt at teams, players such as David Graham and Lee mculloch who were signed as strikers put on the wings meaning at times it felt like we had four up front, whilst still being good defensively. What a time that was to be a tic.
 
Captain Kernow said:
Very good point. I dont know how much my memories playing tricks on me but I don't remember Jewell being a tactical mastermind. We just used to go full pelt at teams, players such as David Graham and Lee mculloch who were signed as strikers put on the wings meaning at times it felt like we had four up front, whilst still being good defensively. What a time that was to be a tic.
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Now that was high press. We ain't seen it since.
 
Cook quotes to press today

“Coming out of the Middlesbrough game on Tuesday night it was a lot different emotions than the Preston game (when they were beaten 3-0).

The performance at Middlesbrough I felt was very good – we did not do a lot wrong in the game.

Defensively I felt we looked very good. We were not troubled in the game in general, it is a game we should have got something out of.

I’m a great believer in performances will lead to results. I think if our preparation is right and our performances stay similar we will get the points everyone wants.”

If he thought there wasn't much wrong with the performance or that standard will get us points I think his heads completely gone. If we replicate the Boro performance level every game between now and the end of the season we wont get another win and will certainly finish rock bottom. Genuinely frightening comments from our manager.

I thought our performance against Boro was worse than Preston, but Preston were light years better than Boro and made us pay while Boro were nearly as bad as us.
 
I must agree. If he feels that performance was in any way good or remotely acceptable then he has lost the plot. I’d be interesting to hear his thoughts if went watching liverpool and they performed in that manner.
 
Wigan: Marshall (GK), Byrne, Robinson, Morsy (c), Lowe, Massey, Mulgrew, Jacobs, Moore, J. Williams, Dunkley.
Subs: Jones (GK), Macleod, Evans, Garner, Kipre, Naismith, Gelhardt.
 
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