Those in glass houses....n/g | Page 6 | Vital Football

Those in glass houses....n/g

Baghdad_Rob said:
The classic "We don't know the motivation but lets assume it is -phobic" approach.



It is unclear where the mistaken images were actually used.

Were the mistakes

a) on the Sports pages where the journalists should have known better, or
b) on the general news section where the journalist probably didn't care about football and simply googled "Footballer Mendy" and picked one of the first images. As per my own screen print below, the majority is of Edouard Mendy. Certainly the ones in the middle which would inherently catch your eyes are of the Chelsea keeper.

View attachment 53577

In the modern environment where the mere accusation of being -phobic can be a deaf sentence to a person's career, I find it harder to believe that someone would deliberately try to use the wrong image. Certainly from the media company's lawyer's perspective they would make it clear that it is a good policy of not mixing wrong images up (in all cases).

Hanlon's Razor is usually correct - never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity "
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This is the link that Jogills posted originally

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59334604

4 different stories, 4 different pictures, 3 in French one in English, not clear where all of them are from.
 
SteveTreacle said:
I don’t think that’s quite right, Jo. You are right that he has made allegations of senior people, such as those in charge at Yorkshire, and as a result some interesting revelations have come out as to who pulls the string their at the top. It’s clear that they have a lot of sorting out today regarding the culture that developed their in the dressing room and the way their board dismissed his allegations and attempted to cover up.

However, he does make some specific individual claims with the likes of Michael Vaughan, David “Bumble” Lloyd, Gary Ballance, Alex Hales and even Joe Root having damaging allegations made about them and already without them having had a chance to respond to his claims, I have seen some of them dismissed as racist, bullies or worse which can’t be right. He has every right to make those claims, but we need to see a full process before we can make any conclusions about his allegations, those accused and him himself. We need to hear fully what his allegations are - especially against individuals - this should have been forensically questioned and challenged and evidence and corroboration should be cited, which it wasn’t and those accused should also be questioned in a similar manner and asked for similar corroboration. Once that’s been done, we may be in a position to reach conclusions. Just believing him and seeing people dismiss Bumble as a racist dinosaur without actually knowing any of the details is ridiculous and doesn’t take us forward, especially as the accuser has similar skeletons in his closet (apparently Bumble’s crime was a comment in private message to a friend about the “Asian community” / we don’t know the details but sounds very similar to Rafiq’s tweet). Joe Root has been criticised by Rafiq and generally for going on record as saying he wasn’t aware of and didn’t experience a racist culture at Yorkshire. Surely he’s entitled to his view and to be believed just as much as Rafiq - in fact, given the uncovering of Rafiq’s Tweet today (which he must have known about whilst presenting his testimony on Wednesday as he remembered things from long before that), I personally am inclined to believe the England captain with an impeccable and dignified record than his accuser. And going back to the forensic point, surely an obvious question for the panel to ask Rafiq was has he said or presented any form of racial or abusive slur?
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MedwayModernist said:
Cheers mate, I had covid pretty badly a few weeks ago, so was off this site for the best part of a month, and really didn't miss it.

Remember the days when it was jokes about the location of the Queen's Head?
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Well I don't find jokes about the location of the Queen's Head funny at all. As the only local expert on it's location I was disgusted and appalled that my superior knowledge was even questioned by a bunch of no mark amateurs.
 
I think this board's in great shape. Insofar as its tone has changed, it's only a reflection of the stresses and strains of the wider world at the moment. In the main, people on here are trying to work through some really difficult stuff in good faith and giving each other room to do so. The exchanges on equivalences and a motivations, in particular, have got me thinking. Mind you, I'm still stuck on first base unsure why racism should be treated as harm above all other harms for which we suspend the rules. Like everyone of my age and era on here, I would not like to have a recording of how I used to talk played back to me, but I worry about the way the issue of race is used, at my university for example, to promote a new orthodoxy and to censure or encourage the self-censuring of thought and expression which is critical of it. My noisy students make vast claims about the racial and gendered nature of society and the role of white males in that as truths to be held as self-evident, and they are shocked by challenges to those claims which they interpret in terms of the motives of the challenger. Meanwhile, my quiet students -the majority- fall more quiet.
 
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jokerman said:
I think this board's in great shape. Insofar as its tone has changed, it's only a reflection of the stresses and strains of the wider world at the moment. In the main, people on here are trying to work through some really difficult stuff in good faith and giving each other room to do so. The exchanges on equivalences and a motivations, in particular, have got me thinking. Mind you, I'm still stuck on first base unsure why racism should be treated as harm above all other harms for which we suspend the rules. Like everyone of my age and era on here, I would not like to have a recording of how I used to talk played back to me, but I worry about the way the issue of race is used, at my university for example, to promote a new orthodoxy and to censure or encourage the self-censuring of thought and expression which is critical of it. My noisy students make vast claims about the racial and gendered nature of society and the role of white males in that as truths to held as self-evident, and they are shocked by challenges to those claims which they interpret in terms of the motives of the challenger. Meanwhile, my quiet students -the majority- fall more quiet.
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there was an interesting episode of who do you think you are where alex scott went to Jamaica to trace her fathers roots and found that her black ancestors were slave owners. Very interesting episode as she also found she had jewish ancestry on her mums side.
if we all go back through history some of our ancestors will disappoint us with their actions or views compared to todays standards or we will find they were oppressed irrespective of race.
its a bit like the python old mans sketch - who was the poorest etc lol.
 
jokerman said:
I think this board's in great shape. Insofar as its tone has changed, it's only a reflection of the stresses and strains of the wider world at the moment. In the main, people on here are trying to work through some really difficult stuff in good faith and giving each other room to do so. The exchanges on equivalences and a motivations, in particular, have got me thinking. Mind you, I'm still stuck on first base unsure why racism should be treated as harm above all other harms for which we suspend the rules. Like everyone of my age and era on here, I would not like to have a recording of how I used to talk played back to me, but I worry about the way the issue of race is used, at my university for example, to promote a new orthodoxy and to censure or encourage the self-censuring of thought and expression which is critical of it. My noisy students make vast claims about the racial and gendered nature of society and the role of white males in that as truths to held as self-evident, and they are shocked by challenges to those claims which they interpret in terms of the motives of the challenger. Meanwhile, my quiet students -the majority- fall more quiet.
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That, my friend, is post of the year IMO and contains an incredible amount of the old fashioned concept of common sense.

It is a sad fact of life that bullying has existed since the dawn of time and will never be stamped out. People - as in male, female or transitioning, straight, gay or bisexual, young or old, of any race - either conciously or unconsciously, will all have bullied or been bullied, probably both. Sometimes that takes the form of sexism, sometimes racism, sometimes ageism, sometimes just ganging up or wanting to belong to the powerful group. Sometimes, people just want to play the victim rather than (metaphorically) fight against it.

Of course, we all gravitate to people that share our own characteristics and values, but we also all need to show tolerance to those that are different, or hold different views and values.

At the moment, white people, particularly males (and often police), in the UK seem to be painted as needing to wear sackcloth and ashes and require "educating" about literally everything, while every other group are always looking to blame them, despite statistics indicating otherwise, and I am becoming heartily fed up with it.

Also, the joy is being sucked out of everything so I fear for the young, who will have no option but to spend their lives being po faced, in fear of being light hearted or, heaven forbid, cracking a joke now and again.
 
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Jerryattrick said:
there was an interesting episode of who do you think you are where alex scott went to Jamaica to trace her fathers roots and found that her black ancestors were slave owners. Very interesting episode as she also found she had jewish ancestry on her mums side.
if we all go back through history some of our ancestors will disappoint us with their actions or views compared to todays standards or we will find they were oppressed irrespective of race.
its a bit like the python old mans sketch - who was the poorest etc lol.
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There was a similar episode involving Charlene White, she was visibly gutted to find she was descendant of slave traders.
 
ThreeSixes said:
This is the link that Jogills posted originally

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59334604

4 different stories, 4 different pictures, 3 in French one in English, not clear where all of them are from.
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Maybe I'm being naive or something but I suspect a non sport journalist just Googled "Mendy footballer" and got the wrong player, much in the same way that the talksport researcher entered "Gary Stevens" into the station's phone book records and got Gary Steven.
As someone else has pointed out, apart from a few really top PL players, I honestly wouldn't know one if he punched me in the face.
Visual mistakes among certain ethnicities are common, my wife is blonde with blue eyes and, when on holiday, is forever being asked by locals if she is German (or even Swedish on one occasion). Is that racist????
 
Interesting that several of us with widely differing views can appreciate jokerman's post. It's in the buts that the fighting starts.

I'm genuinely struggling with views on the Mendy pictures. I fully understand mistaking one person for one another, sometimes absurdly, do it myself. I don't understand posting pictures in relation to a rape story with such carelessness. That shocks me. I do think it symbolises much else.

I sort of agree with jokerman's ordinary rules apply approach.... the but. But a black skin in a largely white world marks you out for good, or ill. You have no choice. Much easier to choose to be seen, not to be seen , to engage, not to engage if white. Any stereotyping then hits you whether you like it or not and bad actors can cause havoc.

There are topics I won't go near publicly, the transgender stuff an obvious example. I don't want to cause offence, I don't like being called names I don't accept and I struggle with the rendering of simple words meaningless. In that much I understand how many feel shut down and provoked over other issues but hurt is hurt. I confess to being perverse enough that I would begin to turn reactionary were this board a left wing bubble.
 
jogills said:
I'm genuinely struggling with views on the Mendy pictures. I fully understand mistaking one person for one another, sometimes absurdly, do it myself. I don't understand posting pictures in relation to a rape story with such carelessness. That shocks me. I do think it symbolises much else.
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In Edouard Mendy's boots, I would have been upset as well. Not with being mistaken for another player when selecting a picture, but because of the possibility that the public may think that I am the accused man if they see me in the street.

I think the comparable Gravesen/Carsley mix up shows we are talking about lazy media incompetence rather than racism (as in "they all look the same").

On top of that, if Benjamin Mendy is found to be guilty, how can you possibly compare Edouard Mendy's understandable irritation with the distress of the girls who have been raped? A little perspective is needed, methinks.
 
valenciagill said:
Whoops

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/new...essages-to-teenage-girl-six-years-ago-3464984
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nothing actually illegal there at all.

although i do not automatically believe his claims I also do not agree with a 'whistle blower' being purposely portrayed in a bad light to cast doubt on his character.

funny how things can be dredged up for this purpose. If he has done something illegal then prosecute otherwise concentrate on the current racial allegations in a legal framework.
 
Jerryattrick said:
nothing actually illegal there at all.

although i do not automatically believe his claims I also do not agree with a 'whistle blower' being purposely portrayed in a bad light to cast doubt on his character.

funny how things can be dredged up for this purpose. If he has done something illegal then prosecute otherwise concentrate on the current racial allegations in a legal framework.
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Nothing illegal but his claims that he was forced against his will to drink alcohol don't look very sound.
It's like a good defence lawyer, he only has to disprove one tiny piece of evidence to place the rest in doubt.
As I said above, we've all said or done something silly in the past but only some are honest enough to admit it and learn from it. If your past is squeaky clean then you can throw whatever mud you like, if not, pick your battles wisely.
 
Jerryattrick said:
nothing actually illegal there at all.

although i do not automatically believe his claims I also do not agree with a 'whistle blower' being purposely portrayed in a bad light to cast doubt on his character.

funny how things can be dredged up for this purpose. If he has done something illegal then prosecute otherwise concentrate on the current racial allegations in a legal framework.
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Not sure VG was suggesting that it was illegal, just as none of Rafiq's own claims involve illegality. Otherwise, why have police not become involved and taken Ballance, etc, in for questioning? - I suppose at least they would then have been given the chance to give their side of the story.

If this girl's claims prove true, Rafiq sees the age of 19 as being so young that you are not responsible for anti-semitic views but 17 is old enough to be sent creepy text messages by an older married guy. Interesting logic and morals.
 
GillsBluenose said:
Not sure VG was suggesting that it was illegal, just as none of Rafiq's own claims involve illegality. Otherwise, why have police not become involved and taken Ballance, etc, in for questioning? - I suppose at least they would then have been given the chance to give their side of the story.

If this girl's claims prove true, Rafiq sees the age of 19 as being so young that you are not responsible for anti-semitic views but 17 is old enough to be sent creepy text messages by an older married guy. Interesting logic and morals.
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VG is using something to support his point of view from his 'side' where all shouts of racism are false.
as people have said, the racism claims stand on their own but must be thoroughly and independently investigated.

dragging up other events only for the sake of diminishing the original claim would not stand for legal cases as they have no relevance to the case.
If people want to bring up these deflection claims the treat them separately and similarly investigated fully and fairly.

picking arguments just to suit 'your side' is not natural justice.
Also just making claims without any evidence leading to those accused being found guilty by the media without recourse is against natural justice.
 
Jerryattrick said:
picking arguments just to suit 'your side' is not natural justice.
Also just making claims without any evidence leading to those accused being found guilty by the media without recourse is against natural justice.
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With respect, I am not sure that natural justice comes in to it.

I am not sure treating women as second class citizens, as happens in many asian countries, is natural justice. Just not seen as sexism there, or under their laws.

Racism is often not treated the same way there, either:
Most Racist Countries 2021 (worldpopulationreview.com)

As for "without any evidence", what would you say constitute evidence, if an actual admission of anti-semitism doesn't?

I would also say that natural justice only occurs after hearing from both prosecutor and defendant.
 
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