The Ramsdale effect

[tomytony]

"Ramsdale,2 games in, 3 goals scored against us, hardly a save to make.

For now I'll leave it as a big BUT
However I think we might be discussing him further as the season progresses."

I posted this after the Villa 2-0 defeat and, sad to say, we do need to discuss him now.We all know the spine needs to be strong and , at the base of that spine,the coccyx, we look more likely to cock up than stand up to an onslaught.

The defence has lost JOC, a masssive blow, but the whole team is now playing in front of a player who seems incapable of actually catching a ball, He never even attempts to catch it , his 1st instinct is to punch/parry it. His footwork is laboured , his athleticism , his spring, sadly lacking.

He's a good shot stopper and his parry's are away from the onrushing forwards but, for me, his overall keeping, his authority, his presence is lacking and that is having a massive effect on those in front of him.

Forget any Hendo comparisons, just take Ramsdale in comparison with the rest of his peers and he's sadly lacking. He may be the England U21 keeper but that says more about the dearth of England keepers than it does about his standing in the game. FFS Pickford, Gordon Banks ( and many others) must be spinning in theeir graves.

Why didn't we look elsewhere,(abroad) he wasn't cheap keeper wise ( were we blinded by the ex Blade tag?) and his back up Foderingham, looks like a player brought in as a sparring partner not a competitor for the crown. We've 3 keepers on the books and you'd be hard pressed to make a good 'un out of a combination of the lot. That's wasted money.

I know he's young, and especially for a keeper ,I hope for SUFC's sake he develops, and quickly, but cn anyone honestly say that they feel comfortable, safe, secure, confident when the ball is in the penalty area?

I think that permeates through the team, it's like they're waiting to cover for him not able to be confident that "that one's sorted, off we go"..

We've got plenty of problems yes but w've got a root cause of our own making ( buying)

 

[twirlo70]

i totally disagree with you. he made a couple of saves yesterday that our previous keeper wouldnt have made ,especially the near post one, i watched the game yesterday without any crowd noise and rammers was the loudest player on the pitch especially at corners. possibly one goal the one where lowe totally let chillwell get in behind him he could have come for ,but the delivery was that good he was in two minds. if rammers was in goal last year he,d have been the best thing since sliced bread, if hendo was behind this team playing as it is he,d be getting some reight hammer.
ramsdale is getting spotlighted because of the inept cowardice from the team in front of him. hes saved us getting hammered every week . he,ll be a top keeper for us. and believe it or not this myth about the defence playing bad cause of the keeper is total nonsense ,a player sees to his own job with in that team and if he fucks up its down to him and no one else its not because ramsdale is in the net.. ramsdale is a big character in the changing room the lads love him and hes one of the main vocal players.its easy to see the faults and magnify them if youve got your mind set at not liking the player right from the beginning . yesterday wasnt his best game yes i agree,but is he a bad keeper no he isnt ,but every little mistake is gonna be blown all out of proportion. that team in front of him is badly letting him down look at the marking the inept playground marking ,the inept signed cover for oconnel .mistake after mistake after mistake in front of him. no fucking wonder he looks uncomfortable at times id be shitting mi sen wi that tripe in front of me. hes under attack after attack after attack after attack no keeper in the land is gonna come out the other side smelling of roses playing in our team at the moment. as he lost us the points by a mistake letting the ball in the net from a winning position this season,can we say we would have won that if it wernt for ramsdale dropping that one int net. no we cant cause he hasnt.
Ramsdale needs a team in front of him not the shower of piss thats letting him down . my view anyway utb

 

[tomytony]

i totally disagree with you. he made a couple of saves yesterday that our previous keeper wouldnt have made ,especially the near post one, i watched the game yesterday without any crowd noise and rammers was the loudest player on the pitch especially at corners. possibly one goal the one where lowe totally let chillwell get in behind him he could have come for ,but the delivery was that good he was in two minds. if rammers was in goal last year he,d have been the best thing since sliced bread, if hendo was behind this team playing as it is he,d be getting some reight hammer.
ramsdale is getting spotlighted because of the inept cowardice from the team in front of him. hes saved us getting hammered every week . he,ll be a top keeper for us. and believe it or not this myth about the defence playing bad cause of the keeper is total nonsense ,a player sees to his own job with in that team and if he fucks up its down to him and no one else its not because ramsdale is in the net.. ramsdale is a big character in the changing room the lads love him and hes one of the main vocal players.its easy to see the faults and magnify them if youve got your mind set at not liking the player right from the beginning . yesterday wasnt his best game yes i agree,but is he a bad keeper no he isnt ,but every little mistake is gonna be blown all out of proportion. that team in front of him is badly letting him down look at the marking the inept playground marking ,the inept signed cover for oconnel .mistake after mistake after mistake in front of him. no fucking wonder he looks uncomfortable at times id be shitting mi sen wi that tripe in front of me. hes under attack after attack after attack after attack no keeper in the land is gonna come out the other side smelling of roses playing in our team at the moment. as he lost us the points by a mistake letting the ball in the net from a winning position this season,can we say we would have won that if it wernt for ramsdale dropping that one int net. no we cant cause he hasnt.
Ramsdale needs a team in front of him not the shower of piss thats letting him down . my view anyway utb

It's a combination of the two though Twirls, bad defence exposes keeper or bad keeper makes defence worse?

He may be well liked in the dressing room , one of the lads etc, but I'd rather have someone well respected on the pitch for their performance, their security, their reliability.

He's a very good shot stopper- is that why he looked so good last year,he had so many to deal with?- but, again, whilst he may be loud, it's actions not words that speak loudest.
He does not command his area, never mind the 6 yard box and his handling is dodgy in that he rarely, if ever, looks to catch the ball.He has, so far, parried it well to the sides, not into the players, and that's encourging. He's good at his near post but he's just not 'safe'.

Yes he stops it but rarely looks in control of the ball. He's a flapper.He doesn't come for many crosses and , in the last couple of weeks, he's come off his line, and made poor decisions doing that, to be rescued by the defenders covering behind him.

The 1st goal yesterday, hit into he ground, might have seem a more athletic keeper, someone who moves his feet quicker, with better spring get enough on it to deflect it. He looks to be diving 'downhill' a lot- eg Villa goal if I remember rightly.

The Chilwell goal was his . Yes Lowe was wrong losing his man but it should never have got to that, it should have been in Ramsdale's arms before that, that's what a keeper who commands his 6yd box does.

I am deliberately NOT comparing him with Hendo just judging him as a PL keeper and , so far, he's got a lot to prove. He's young, he may well do so and I hope so but watching his OVERALL demeanour, he's ponderous, slow, leaden footed , lacking in spring and athleticism so he can't , physically, literally, reach the heights.There always seems to be more chance of a mistake than a secure stop, save, gather and clear from him.

I've thought it since last year when we saw plenty of him at B/mouth - what I didn't want was to see my fears , my thoughts proved right but , as we all strive to find the many reasons for our decline, I reckon he's up there as one of them and, as in all team games,he's got to be pointed out if culpable.

I know each player has a job to do but, equally, we talk of defensive units , midfield units etc and he's a big part of the defensive unit, the base that gives you the platform to build from. The fact that we have no builders to supply the finishers is not his fault.

The fact that the solid base is less solid has a lot to do with his part in that.We'd all prefer him to be having to make a lot less saves but that's his job and there's plenty of room for improvement in the way he does that job.

 

[twirlo70]

It's a combination of the two though Twirls, bad defence exposes keeper or bad keeper makes defence worse?

He may be well liked in the dressing room , one of the lads etc, but I'd rather have someone well respected on the pitch for their performance, their security, their reliability.

He's a very good shot stopper- is that why he looked so good last year,he had so many to deal with?- but, again, whilst he may be loud, it's actions not words that speak loudest.
He does not command his area, never mind the 6 yard box and his handling is dodgy in that he rarely, if ever, looks to catch the ball.He has, so far, parried it well to the sides, not into the players, and that's encourging. He's good at his near post but he's just not 'safe'.

Yes he stops it but rarely looks in control of the ball. He's a flapper.He doesn't come for many crosses and , in the last couple of weeks, he's come off his line, and made poor decisions doing that, to be rescued by the defenders covering behind him.

The 1st goal yesterday, hit into he ground, might have seem a more athletic keeper, someone who moves his feet quicker, with better spring get enough on it to deflect it. He looks to be diving 'downhill' a lot- eg Villa goal if I remember rightly.

The Chilwell goal was his . Yes Lowe was wrong losing his man but it should never have got to that, it should have been in Ramsdale's arms before that, that's what a keeper who commands his 6yd box does.

I am deliberately NOT comparing him with Hendo just judging him as a PL keeper and , so far, he's got a lot to prove. He's young, he may well do so and I hope so but watching his OVERALL demeanour, he's ponderous, slow, leaden footed , lacking in spring and athleticism so he can't , physically, literally, reach the heights.There always seems to be more chance of a mistake than a secure stop, save, gather and clear from him.

I've thought it since last year when we saw plenty of him at B/mouth - what I didn't want was to see my fears , my thoughts proved right but , as we all strive to find the many reasons for our decline, I reckon he's up there as one of them and, as in all team games,he's got to be pointed out if culpable.

I know each player has a job to do but, equally, we talk of defensive units , midfield units etc and he's a big part of the defensive unit, the base that gives you the platform to build from. The fact that we have no builders to supply the finishers is not his fault.

The fact that the solid base is less solid has a lot to do with his part in that.We'd all prefer him to be having to make a lot less saves but that's his job and there's plenty of room for improvement in the way he does that job.

i agree theres loads or room for improvement ,but i just dont agree that the defence plays bad because of ramsdale.
but your points are well made and great constructive criticism with no name calling cause i dont agree. a proper debate how it should be without and arguing lol.
its gonna be a season of difference of opinion ,but all wanting the same thing. utb

 

[Fan not a Fanatic]

What ever happened to winning as a team and losing as a team, all the players and manager should take responsibility. The Silva goal highlighted our poor defensive set up and left Ramsdale exposed, some of the marking and closing down is shocking.

 

[Bulmer1889]

I’m in TTs camp on this it’s little things you see as well as the massive not coming for 2nd goal and then trying to make up by coming for the 3rd when it wasn’t his to come for leaving the net empty things like the rasping 25 yarder that should have been patted down (no need to catch it was a good hard shot) one bounce and comfortable safe in his hands instead it’s batted away and possession given away again
i agree on the having confidence in the players too if you don’t twirls just think back to the pub league BC (Before Chris) and how nobody trusted anyone else to do the job they should have done last season egan would be comfortable watching a ball sail over his head knowing it would be dealt with 99/100 now he’s trying to cover everything ultimately not doing what he’s supposed to be doing and it cost us at least one of the goals yesterday and that’s being kind I’d personally say it cost more but that again is just my opinion

 

[Bulmer1889]

What ever happened to winning as a team and losing as a team, all the players and manager should take responsibility. The Silva goal highlighted our poor defensive set up and left Ramsdale exposed, some of the marking and closing down is shocking.

It’s highlighting the fact the back ups aren’t up to it and other performance levels have dropped also whether that’s because they aren’t in the well oiled machine that was last seasons team or something else is another point for discussion

 

[Fan not a Fanatic]

It’s highlighting the fact the back ups aren’t up to it and other performance levels have dropped also whether that’s because they aren’t in the well oiled machine that was last seasons team or something else is another point for discussion

It's clear to see the performances have dropped, as well as the tempo and energy levels they look knacked 8 games in. "Back ups not up to it" that's worrying allegedly we have just had our best transfer window why did we bring them in?

 

[Peak Rover]

Twirlo and TT both have made good points but the real problem is that the whole team is playing badly so that there is constant pressure on our penalty /6 yard box and of course under pressure we all make mistakes
Unfortunately we don't have enough good enough players to put in to give the shell shocked ones some recovery time.I think Wilder has a massive job to do instill confidence in them quickly before it's too late

 

[Bulmer1889]

It's clear to see the performances have dropped, as well as the tempo and energy levels they look knacked 8 games in. "Back ups not up to it" that's worrying allegedly we have just had our best transfer window why did we bring them in?

Most of them were here last season let’s put another way back ups ok for the odd game but for a period getting found out does that sound more right doesnt matter how you say it the results still the same and I keep saying it the stw was used for the future not now like Warnock did and I fear the result will be the same

 

[Fan not a Fanatic]

Most of them were here last season let’s put another way back ups ok for the odd game but for a period getting found out does that sound more right doesnt matter how you say it the results still the same and I keep saying it the stw was used for the future not now like Warnock did and I fear the result will be the same

I remember Wilder saying after the Southampton defeat last season we needed "more quality in the team". Personally I interpreted that as players that would step straight into the team, not back ups, obviously I misunderstood. Clearly he hasn't had a great TF window. Nevertheless they are his players and he needs to get a tune out of them whether in the current system or a amended style.

 

[twirlo70]

I remember Wilder saying after the Southampton defeat last season we needed "more quality in the team". Personally I interpreted that as players that would step straight into the team, not back ups, obviously I misunderstood. Clearly he hasn't had a great TF window. Nevertheless they are his players and he needs to get a tune out of them whether in the current system or a amended style.

trouble hes made for him self is hes totally put all his eggs in one basket formation and tactics wise, so to change it now and get it to work whislt the season is up and running is gonna be so difficult and to get results whislt doing so. having said that if they cant play 4-4-2 0r 4-5-1 then they need to pack in and get on a forum wi us lol. and then we have wilders stubborness ,that if he changes things his revolutionary tactics are confined to the grave and in the end were useless in the long run

 

[Grayblade]

Confidence is a wonderful thing and as I’ve always said, having a confident keeper who expects to keep a clean sheet is probably the most important benefit to a team just ahead of a striker who expects to score every game. We have neither right now.

A problem with Ramsdale could be that he came here having conceded in virtually every game last season in a relegation bound Bournemouth side but let’s remember that he was voted their player of the season. Fans and critics alike said that he was outstanding, but he has become conditioned to NOT expect to keep a clean sheet just like most of our ‘strikers‘ have become conditioned NOT to expect to score a goal. The only way we are going to get out of this mess is by Ramsdale keeping clean sheets and the likes of McBurnie and Brewster getting off the Mark and then hopefully confidence will flow throughout the team and we’ll see where we’re really at.

But while we’re quite right to question Ramsdale, I don’t think Henderson would have faired much better behind this defence. Let’s not forget he had very little to do in most games last season and his main strength was keeping his concentration for few occasions that he was called upon. Ramsdale is being peppered with shots and having to make several saves most games and I think it’s as much about him not having much confidence of those in front of him. The polar opposite of how Henderson must have felt, it’s a two way thing. Shocking defending particularly down our left side leading to virtually unmarked headers and shots going in on our goal from open play and from set pieces throughout the game. It’s something that was unthinkable most of last season but it was obvious again last night that teams are targeting that flank and that side of our box. Lowe isn't ready yet and Steven’s isn’t disciplined or good enough in the air to play left centre back so like SBT said, Wilder’s got to get Steven’s back to LWB/FB and come up with something using Robinson or Jags or change the formation, but even with a back 4 two right footed centre backs won’t be ideal.

Somehow we’ve got to hang on in there against the ‘lesser’ teams and address it in January (assuming there‘s any money left in the kitty), but it’s not going to be easy and January may come too late. Not bringing in a quality replacement for Jack O’Connel is Wilder‘s biggest mistake in my opinion, and Ramsdale although he’s not blameless is more of a symptom of our poor defending not the main cause of it.

 

[Fan not a Fanatic]

trouble hes made for him self is hes totally put all his eggs in one basket formation and tactics wise, so to change it now and get it to work whislt the season is up and running is gonna be so difficult and to get results whislt doing so. having said that if they cant play 4-4-2 0r 4-5-1 then they need to pack in and get on a forum wi us lol. and then we have wilders stubborness ,that if he changes things his revolutionary tactics are confined to the grave and in the end were useless in the long run

I'm sure I heard him say after the Chelsea game the new players needed time to grow into the system. Does that mean he will continue with his current system regardless, the Bogle and Lowe signings would indicate he will. It's a problem Wilder and AK have to figure out. Can the players adapt to another system, hopefully they have a plan "B". Premiership is unrelenting not many games you can experiment in, if he changes and they get hammered the confidence will fly away. Difficult times but he's had the upside now it's important he can handle the downside.

 

[Blade for Life]

Against every team we have conceded 70 percent possession. Our defence has been under pressure virtually all the time. Against Leeds and Man City Ramsdale was excellent. Would Henderson have done any better in this team I doubt it and nothing to have made that much difference. I feel like a broken record but not replacing JOC has cost us more points and altered the balance of the team. Even bigger is not adding quality in midfield. We have to add quality over quantity but when you need both then our budget has left huge gaps. We need to get off Ramsdale and Brewsters back and look at the root cause. When you have 6-7 players starting yesterday that are not premiership standard it is too much for the players that are to carry. We have to hope Fleck and Moose come back fit and firing and the Prince can scrape together some money for at least one new signing and one loan in the JTW. Please no more Osborn and Robinson fill in players.

 

[tomytony]

This is CW's biggest test, low confidence, his much vaunted, and rightly so, formation not cutting it, seemingly poor transfer window and he has his own demons to deal with.

Basically he's got to suck it up, get over the fact that he's got it wrong and really prove he's as good as we all think he is.

I reckon he thought we could survive , even prosper, again this season so he was buying for the future (cf Warnock and Luton Shelton).

With Ramsdale he was buying a decent shot stopper who he , obviously, thought would be well protected enough to be at least adequate if not fully competent to cope with the demands of the PL. Unfortunately, for me, he's part of the problem and nowhere near ( at present,if ever) becoming part of the solution.

This is not a witch hunt but he just does not look the part for reasons already stated

Hopefully coaches can work on his weaknesses and, for me, they are physical ones, speed of movement , spring , athleticism etc etc. They are solveable ( I compare him to Jonny Bairstow who, when 1st in the England team as wktkeepr, had poor feet movement and anticipation which he, and his coaches worked on to make him a very able keeper) but I wonder if the due diligence was done or were we 'convinced' by him being a Blade, mitigating against B/moutth's eventual relegation,England U21 keeper( from a crop of crap) and just didn't look closely enough.

Either way, we're stuck with him ( Foderingham's signing now looks increasingly bizarre and /or negligent) but it's one challenge CW certainly didn't expect but one more he has to deal with to prove his mettle.

Yes it's chicken and egg but, both ways, there's salmonella about.

 

[Costa blade]

"Ramsdale,2 games in, 3 goals scored against us, hardly a save to make.

For now I'll leave it as a big BUT
However I think we might be discussing him further as the season progresses."

I posted this after the Villa 2-0 defeat and, sad to say, we do need to discuss him now.We all know the spine needs to be strong and , at the base of that spine,the coccyx, we look more likely to cock up than stand up to an onslaught.

The defence has lost JOC, a masssive blow, but the whole team is now playing in front of a player who seems incapable of actually catching a ball, He never even attempts to catch it , his 1st instinct is to punch/parry it. His footwork is laboured , his athleticism , his spring, sadly lacking.

He's a good shot stopper and his parry's are away from the onrushing forwards but, for me, his overall keeping, his authority, his presence is lacking and that is having a massive effect on those in front of him.

Forget any Hendo comparisons, just take Ramsdale in comparison with the rest of his peers and he's sadly lacking. He may be the England U21 keeper but that says more about the dearth of England keepers than it does about his standing in the game. FFS Pickford, Gordon Banks ( and many others) must be spinning in theeir graves.

Why didn't we look elsewhere,(abroad) he wasn't cheap keeper wise ( were we blinded by the ex Blade tag?) and his back up Foderingham, looks like a player brought in as a sparring partner not a competitor for the crown. We've 3 keepers on the books and you'd be hard pressed to make a good 'un out of a combination of the lot. That's wasted money.

I know he's young, and especially for a keeper ,I hope for SUFC's sake he develops, and quickly, but cn anyone honestly say that they feel comfortable, safe, secure, confident when the ball is in the penalty area?

I think that permeates through the team, it's like they're waiting to cover for him not able to be confident that "that one's sorted, off we go"..

We've got plenty of problems yes but w've got a root cause of our own making ( buying)

I don't think it is worth discussing!! he was no worse than the rest yesterday.
Our defence was terrible, on the silly goal that Chilwell scored, Bash could have done better in trying to stop the cross, Rammy possibly thought Lowe was going to deal with it, and he should have! but to be fair Rammy should have taken charge, and he didn't.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing

 

[Peak Rover]

I hope Wilder can now rethink because the whole left flank has been decimated by injuries and poor form JOC Fleck and Stevens so his successful formula doesn't work effectively as those are playing out of their best positions. So going to 4 4 2 with personal he has at his disposal which would give the team more attacking potential and players playing in more natural positions. How about this
Ramsdale
Baldock Egan Ampadu Robinson/Lowe
Basham Berge Norwood Stevens/Osborn
Brewster McBurnie
Midfield left side would be improved when Fleck I'd fit

 

[seanbeanstattoo]

I don't think it is worth discussing!! he was no worse than the rest yesterday.
Our defence was terrible, on the silly goal that Chilwell scored, Bash could have done better in trying to stop the cross, Rammy possibly thought Lowe was going to deal with it, and he should have! but to be fair Rammy should have taken charge, and he didn't.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing

Sadly an unreliable keeper is worse than 4 crap defenders. Every mistake the former makes is a goal.
About 10 % of the latter is.

 

[tomytony]

I don't think it is worth discussing!! he was no worse than the rest yesterday.
Our defence was terrible, on the silly goal that Chilwell scored, Bash could have done better in trying to stop the cross, Rammy possibly thought Lowe was going to deal with it, and he should have! but to be fair Rammy should have taken charge, and he didn't.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing

The very point that I am making in my OP is that it is not hindsight CB, I was worried, and said so, albeit obliquely, from the beginning, hence my copied italics.

I take no satisfaction from it but, increasingly,the little things are coming back to bite us on the *rse.It's the subconscious effect on the rest of the team , who have their own weight of demons to bear admittedly, that's my bigger concern.

He's made some very good saves but, TBH, he would be expected to make 99% of those he has made. A keeper, in the popular view, having a good game is him being busy and dealing with what comes at him but sometimes it's how you do that.

He makes stops but they often come straight back into play and add to the pressure. His mentality is not to make safe, smother and clear, it's to parry and pray nowt comes of it.

You don't notice the very best keepers, they anticipate, organise,and aren't having to fly across goal every 5 minutes but, in extremis, they deal with what comes at them ( think Gordon Banks). When all's at sea they make good saves , have a high profile, get recognised because there's plenty to remember when they are dealing with, and often causing, panic.( think Pickford).