The Official Dean Smith Thread | Page 296 | Vital Football

The Official Dean Smith Thread

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
No sarcasm or tone intended, just trying to get my point across like anyone else. Also not lecturing, only debating. I think it's important that people stop throwing stones and scapegoating Dean Smith considering where we are now compared to where we were when he took over and where we expected to be in 2020 when he took over.

I'm sorry, but staying up and reaching a league cup final when most of our competitors have established squads worth 50-100m more than ours when you look into transfers is not "bang average", its exceeding expectations. And yeah, that's an opinion, but one that I think would be shared with the majority of the neutral football world.

No issues with you at all Jon, please dont take my posts personally, love reading your posts on here.
not taken personally dude, but think sometimes there is a better way to counter an argument.

Also, as per what I say to others, my name really isn't Jon. Hate being called it. (No tone or sarcasm at all to that btw, just if I don't point it out, others start calling it me as well. J, JF, Fear, Jonathan, Divine Leader all fine!)

Not totally sure you speak for the neutral football world, a good few I mix with running this network often ask wtf Villa are playing at! I have little to no answer these days, just massive frustrations. I just cannot keep calling us big when we go for managers like this time and time and time again.

Totally get others disagree and if he stays, I hope he proves me totally and utterly wrong. Only want the best for Villa, same as the rest of us here.
 

wittonite

Vital 1st Team Regular
What pedigree does Pochettino have that Dean doesnt? Like I said, hes won nothing with an almost faultless squad.
Sorry mate, I want Smith to stay as you know but you cant play the "nearly won" game with the League Cup final but not apply the same logic to the Champions League that Poch almost got.
PS he also nearly won the 2015 League Cup final.
 
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Can I ask for some evidence if this is the new way of doing things... that we'll win Sunday? What evidence that Smith will get better next season? What evidence his assistant manager and assistant coaches have improved our players? What evidence that he has no say in signings? What evidence he is a super coach himself? What evidence his departure from Brentford hasn't aided them to what looks like their best finish ever? What evidence going for a middle of the road manager has ever brought us any success? What evidence we can push on with him? What evidence having a manager like him will be able to attract a top striker that we need? What evidence if we get the striker, that he'll play to his strengths? What evidence that any top player will be attracted to play at a club with impatient fans due to the visions they are always sold, when they look at the manager in charge?

We could get rid of him and he might have been the best thing ever next season, or we could have more of the same. We could attract a top pedigree manager and he could be a disaster, or for once we might attract the right man to push us back towards where some of us believe we should be.

No evidence, just football.
I have had doubts but some evidence...20% of this seasons points have come in the last three games. Last night was a tactical masterclass. It was Villa‘s best performance this season. Smith hasn’t lost the players in the circumstance. The negatives are there have been some fitness questions running around...Smith even said it which was strange as I put responsibility for that squarely on his shoulders. I question some of his personnel decisions....I thought Guilbert coming on last night was fortuitous. Arguably he is a bit one track on tactics...subs are all a bit like for like. Whilst there are some weaknesses do you now just swap out the whole thing or can the weaknesses be worked on by the club as a whole. Maybe what we should be looking for is Peter Taylor rather than Brian Clough.
 
I have had doubts but some evidence...20% of this seasons points have come in the last three games. Last night was a tactical masterclass. It was Villa‘s best performance this season. Smith hasn’t lost the players in the circumstance. The negatives are there have been some fitness questions running around...Smith even said it which was strange as I put responsibility for that squarely on his shoulders. I question some of his personnel decisions....I thought Guilbert coming on last night was fortuitous. Arguably he is a bit one track on tactics...subs are all a bit like for like. Whilst there are some weaknesses do you now just swap out the whole thing or can the weaknesses be worked on by the club as a whole. Maybe what we should be looking for is Peter Taylor rather than Brian Clough.
At the time I thought it was risky bringing Freddie on as Hause could have come on and Konsa moved to right back , but it was an inspired decision. Freddie was ace.
 

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
Yes, good points HiFried, but then, it could be countered that is at the point some of the teams are on the beach already, as often happens at the end of a season.

Dunno, Villa do my head in, said for years we are a big club, but to be fair, I see little to no evidence as to these protestations, other than a glorious history.
 

crimsondonkey

Vital Squad Member
Its a difficult thing to equate the potential of managers who are at different stages, have been at different clubs with different budgets and circumstances etc.

Might be just me but in the very hypothetical situation that Dean wasn't our manager and we are looking for a new one and the choice was between Dean vs Poch then it would be Poch clear and simple.

Now your opinion may vary but I imagine a lot of fans at various clubs given the same choice between the two would also go Poch too.
 
Not withstanding our great result last night... the fact is that our goal last night came from a set piece.

We are scoring very little from open play; Trez's goal a couple of games ago was an exception. Last night the only goal we might have got from open play was Davis's miss. As we stand, we would have a very tough season next year if we stay up. There is a lot to be done.

I'll go with whatever the owners decide (unless they bring back McLeish). But I can see a good case for another manager, if one of the right pedigree is available.
 

mike_field

Vital Football Legend
I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit, aware that I’ve somewhat flip flopped throughout the season in my opinion regarding Smith etc.

This is where I’m now at... (still flip flopping!).

IF we stay up (a capitalised IF because it’s Vila and you still never know!) then I’m imagining two scenarios (the first might be wishful thinking).

First scenario (the ‘acting like a big club move’):

We somehow convince Poch and his team that Villa are the club for him. Smith is let go but his legacy is safe having guided us up and kept us up.

I, like all, desperately want us to become a club that can keep our best players (especially when they are home grown!)

Imagine us staying up, but Grealish has an offer from a champs league team that he simply can’t refuse.

But then, the Villa tell him that Poch is coming and he wants to build a team around you.... then would he stay? I think quite possibly.

Would Poch come in the first place? Who knows.

Second Scenario:

We realise we are not ‘there’ just yet in our quest to become a big club that thinks like a big club.

We recognise Smiths achievements and keep faith in him and the aim is a top half finish next season, and then we reassess whether we need someone else to take us forwards. There is an inquest into recruitment strategy, and possibly heads will roll (ie. Jesus but not Smith).

With this in mind, I’ve been taking a look at Man City’s Wickipedia page, needing to jog my memory, and these are the key facts I found:

Taken over in 2008.
Recent history of mid table finishes.
Retained Hughes as Manager.
Flurry of bids for high profile players.
Bought Robinho.
Team finished 10th.

2009 summer: over £100m on players (a lot more dosh than it is even now only 11 years later)
December: sacked Hughes.
Brought in big name in world football, Mancini.
Finished 5th, rest is history.

I’m not saying we look to replicate that, or even that we should model ourselves on that - prefer the Liverpool approach/spurs under Poch (minus their dippy chairman). It was also a different time (ffp), different owners (ours are rich, but not that level of rich!) But the key I think here is that City didn’t take long to start ‘thinking big’ and acting big (and ultimately, are still not a bigger club than Villa! Ha)

I think the big thing for me is all of the rhetoric in the summer was about ‘not making up the numbers’, in it to win it etc etc but it hasn’t been backed up on the pitch.

A combo of being a bit unrealistic, and not getting the buys quite right? Perhaps. If the owners think avoiding a relegation battle, at the very least, was achievable, then Smith’s head probably should be on the chopping block. For those fans that pre season believed finishing 17th (if that turns out to be the case) would be a good achievement, then they would argue against that. I can understand the reasons for that perspective, given the state of our squad when we got promoted. But that wasn’t the line that the club chose to peddle.

But if they talk the talk they need to walk the walk - to my mind though, it’s only worth getting rid of Smith if we can get a top name in woth

If you’re a top player (or up and coming one), who do you want to go and play for? Dean Smith, or Mauricio Pochettino? (Or insert other big name with good record here)

It all hinges on whether we can even get someone like that in, at this stage. And there’s also the problem that a manager like Poch wants to spend money... (sacked by Spurs because Levy wouldn’t spend, basically) how much can we spend? How much are our hands tied at this stage by FFP? (Over to you Mike, I don’t understand this stuff!!)

also if the next season starts in September, it ain’t long for a new manager to get his ideas over. Which is the bigger risk?!

Anyway that’s my garbled attempt at explaining my constantly changing thought process and I’m well aware of my own hipocrisy. I guess that’s what football is all about!

I’m tempting fate I might add, as we could still go down!

I’ve also just had two large coffees and I tend to go off on one.
Shamelessly stolen for the FP.

https://astonvilla.vitalfootball.co...been-more-questions-but-few-answers-at-villa/
 

CDX_EIRE

Vital Football Hero
@Dumble says it best I think unless we can bring in someone of real clout I am not for changing the manager.

I think Dean only knows how to attack and how to play one particular way and he is not going to adapt. I think with better players it works, you dont do 10 game win streaks playing differently. Not to compare Dean to Klopp but all th same things were levelled at Klopp. Can't defend, can't defned leads, losing games and drawing games they could have got results in if they defended. Me and a friend talked about game management and I see some similarities.

I do think Smiths tactics work with better players, its a chicken and egg thing though. Can he get himself into a position where he can manage a better calibre of payer.
 

Divine_islet

Vital Reserves Team
Maybe we made these teams look poor. It can happen.
It could be. However, it was obvious to me that those teams were not playing as they were before they played us, or else they'd be around where we are, struggling to stay up ! Moreover, if we had the ability to make others teams look poor instead of being poor ourselves, then we'd not be fighting for survival either.
 

Divine_islet

Vital Reserves Team
I'd also like to ask what evidence we have that Pottechino would do any better than Dean Smith? Dean came close to winning a league cup for us this season, Pottechino had a squad of world class international footballers and won absolutely nothing.
Close to winning the league cup vs close to winning the champions league. I know what I'd want. What's next, Dean vs Alex ? 😁
 
It could be. However, it was obvious to me that those teams were not playing as they were before they played us, or else they'd be around where we are, struggling to stay up ! Moreover, if we had the ability to make others teams look poor instead of being poor ourselves, then we'd not be fighting for survival either.
Ah right. So when we win it's nothing to do with Smith , and if we lose it's all Smith's fault.
 
Very much where I'm at, Mike. I know we need a big improvement if we stay up, and would hope for one if we go down. But who's the manager is a difficult question. A lot was asked of Dean Smith this season, but that's what the job is about.

Down to the owners, I think, and what their options are in terms of available managers. Poch, say, fits. Pellegrini doesn't. Dean's a good manager, and I think he'll have a good career, but I'm not sure he's the one to take us forwards.
 

CDX_EIRE

Vital Football Hero
It could be. However, it was obvious to me that those teams were not playing as they were before they played us, or else they'd be around where we are, struggling to stay up ! Moreover, if we had the ability to make others teams look poor instead of being poor ourselves, then we'd not be fighting for survival either.
We can't have it both ways and it was the same last season. Some look at it as exclusively being a Dean Smith issue but now that we wins games its other teams.

Its all a big combination, some of the players have started to show up. Our manager has made some of the right calls and we've been able to play a few teams at the right time. Its about time we got a break because we've all complained at one time or another of playing teams at the wrong time.

We can only play the team thats put out on the pitch at that given time, form peaks and troughs as it always does virus or no virus.
 

Langoe66

Vital Squad Member
Can I ask for some evidence if this is the new way of doing things... that we'll win Sunday? What evidence that Smith will get better next season? What evidence his assistant manager and assistant coaches have improved our players? What evidence that he has no say in signings? What evidence he is a super coach himself? What evidence his departure from Brentford hasn't aided them to what looks like their best finish ever? What evidence going for a middle of the road manager has ever brought us any success? What evidence we can push on with him? What evidence having a manager like him will be able to attract a top striker that we need? What evidence if we get the striker, that he'll play to his strengths? What evidence that any top player will be attracted to play at a club with impatient fans due to the visions they are always sold, when they look at the manager in charge?

We could get rid of him and he might have been the best thing ever next season, or we could have more of the same. We could attract a top pedigree manager and he could be a disaster, or for once we might attract the right man to push us back towards where some of us believe we should be.

No evidence, just football.
Lots of questions to ponder here Fear but I’ll offer one answer to ‘what evidence is there that a middle of the road manager has ever given us any success’...a certain Ron Saunders of course and I’d also add Brian Little with two top 4 finishes and a league cup win.....both I’d say were pretty middle of the road when appointed. The appointment of Saunders was actually not welcomed by a fair few. Game so very different now though and unfortunately money dictates to the extent that I’m not sure whether the managers classed as ‘top pedigree’ and therefore at clubs with a bob or two would be so impressive with less money to spend. Oh for the days of a more even playing field!