The Keinan Davis Thread | Page 15 | Vital Football

The Keinan Davis Thread

1958Villan said:
Although he's a big unit, that could be why he gets the injuries he does. His outer muscular body has grown but, his skeleton hasn't finished growing and is therefore not yet strong enough to support his size fully yet.
That's why I think a regimen like Yoga or Ballet training might help.
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He is indeed a unit but if he repeatedly piles on scar tissue to that hamstring then the odds of it going again keep getting higher unfortunately.

If he's been out with it for three months recently and done it again in just 1.5 games then perhaps that doesn't bode well. He may just be cursed with really tight hamstring(s) that are always going to be problematic but you're right, if that's the scenario then they're going to have to apply specific muscle stretching physio to that but it could be years until it's loosened enough to be reliable, especially if he keeps piling on muscle.

Good job we landed Samagoal then ...
 
Why was he even risked in this pointless game? He played for half an hour on Saturday. Another stupid decision.
That said Davis is never injury free for long.
 
The Fear said:
Disagree on that 58, a striker is there to score, body types make them different sorts yes, of course, totally. But goals are the main measure.
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I don’t whole heartedly agree with that, Firminio plays up front yet isn’t a goalscorer.

Unless you are distinguishing between forward and striker?

For me, the rehab is key for Kienan. He needs to stop playing football and work on his muscles and agility, he should be in a room with an exercise ball, a resistance band and Pilates mates as 58 says, not trying to kick a ball this season.

A 6 month sacrifice where he doesn’t wear boots could save his career in the long run. Something is either genetically wrong with Kienan that will make this injury reoccur, or he needs to work on strengthening an area of his body that’s putting the strain on it.

Any physio for a professional club doesn’t need me to tell them that, so I can only guess it’s just bad luck with genetics and his build.

Edit: just read Bonkers post, think we’re on the same track
 
robbali said:
Why was he even risked in this pointless game? He played for half an hour on Saturday. Another stupid decision.
That said Davis is never injury free for long.
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Players need to play, especially after a lay-off - we all wanted more options up front and I'm sure DS does too so if the physio passed him as fit then he should be getting game time while we're all-at-sea up front.

A heavy challenge kicking off a hamstring injury, prior or otherwise, sounds suspect though so I've got some doubts as to the reality of the injury - he can't have been proper fixed if a challenge has done something like a hamstring but that said, sometimes the only way to really know if something is fixed is to hit it with a hammer ...
 
danvilla2 said:
I don’t whole heartedly agree with that, Firminio plays up front yet isn’t a goalscorer.

Unless you are distinguishing between forward and striker?

For me, the rehab is key for Kienan. He needs to stop playing football and work on his muscles and agility, he should be in a room with an exercise ball, a resistance band and Pilates mates as 58 says, not trying to kick a ball this season.

A 6 month sacrifice where he doesn’t wear boots could save his career in the long run. Something is either genetically wrong with Kienan that will make this injury reoccur, or he needs to work on strengthening an area of his body that’s putting the strain on it.

Any physio for a professional club doesn’t need me to tell them that, so I can only guess it’s just bad luck with genetics and his build.

Edit: just read Bonkers post, think we’re on the same track
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Aye, bodies are complicated and balance is everything - look at Gabby's speed before he decided to muscle-up in the gym, he must have lost 20% of his speed and became injury prone from back-to-heel because of it to boot - I can almost guarantee he was doing "hero" deadlifts with ludicrous weight ...

Few people realise it of course but we're made of joints with opposing muscles flexing those joints in both directions - it's perfectly possible to end up with weak hamstrings because your quads (front thigh muscles) are too strong/overdeveloped and they apply a constant strain on the opposite side (hamstrings) and vice versa.

You see that scenario play out in the gym all the time with people prioritising bicep development (cos it looks good) vs tricep development which means your triceps are constantly being worked to simply keep your arm straight because the bicep is way stronger/tighter which eventually knackers your triceps :)

Keinan's issue may have naff all to do with his hamstring directly but it's his quads that are too big/tight but that's for a proper physio to diagnose and sort out - as you suggest, a few months away from resistance training of any kind may save his career, at 21 years old time to "grow out" of things like this is rapidly disappearing ...
 
Keinan started and played his youth football for a semi professional club so I do wonder if you get the advice or treatment at that level to enable you to make an informed long term, career choice - it’s not easy to tell a manager at that age you don’t want to play because you want to rehab. You are a commodity against all the other kids being nurtured for a big money move (£10k is big money) and you need to get back to playing as quickly as you can. At 18, both my knees were shot and I stopped playing for a year (and went to uni and got pissed), playing for a semi pro youth team. The technology and resource obviously isn’t there, the manager who’s seen it for 20 years is your asvisorand he could’ve damaged himself beyond repair.

I don’t know what goes in professional academies but the kids need to be taught at an early age about the body, muscles and joints. It’s only recently I’ve started using resistance bands and foam rollers to try and sort my dodgy legs out.

Much of it is down to genetics, but you look at players like Bale, Messi and Ronaldo - they’ve been conditioned to stay fit and in shape, even in their early 30’s.
 
danvilla2 said:
Keinan started and played his youth football for a semi professional club so I do wonder if you get the advice or treatment at that level to enable you to make a long term, career choices. You are a commodity against all the other kids being nurtured for a big money move (£10k is big money) and you need to get back to playing as quickly as you can. At 18, both my knees were shot and I stopped playing for a year (and went to uni and got pissed), playing for a semi pro youth team. The technology and resource obviously isn’t there, the manager who’s seen it for 20 years is your asvisorand he could’ve damaged himself beyond repair.

I don’t know what goes in professional academies but the kids need to be taught at an early age about the body, muscles and joints. It’s only recently I’ve started using resistance bands and foam rollers to try and sort my dodgy legs out.

Much of it is down to genetics, but you look at players like Bale, Messi and Ronaldo - they’ve been conditioned to stay fit and in shape, even in their early 30’s.
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I've got a decade or so of bodybuilding experience in the gym and plenty of reading/education to go along with that because I like to know how things work, especially if it's complicated :)

Footballers are made to build the muscle around their knees, quads especially, as it holds the knee joint tight and that makes perfect sense to avoid ACL injuries etc.

Much of that building will be done via "isolation" rather than "compound" exercises so the isolation exercises on legs are leg extensions and leg curls - i.e. you're only working one muscle/group at a time and that can cause problems in the real world away from the gym where you always use multiple groups of muscles together, especially when you're running.

If I've got leg problems like this or am talking to someone in the same situation I'm stopping them from doing any isolation exercises at all and making them do compound exercises instead - i.e. squats with as much weight as you can possibly handle so you're stressing your back down to your calves all at the same time and your weakest link amongst those muscle groups will hold you back/be forced to grow stronger in relation to the other muscle groups.

That's a real world stress that you can replicate in the gym and which will keep connected muscle groups strong relative to each other and help to reduce injury.

What's more, it actually makes you stronger in the real world to boot. Pit your average "puffed up" gym bunny against a guy or gal who lifts heavy stuff and walks around carrying that weight for a living every day and the gym bunny is often in for a surprise when it comes to real world strength, even if they look twice the size of the regular guy/gal ...
 
Bonker said:
I've got a decade or so of bodybuilding experience in the gym and plenty of reading/education to go along with that because I like to know how things work, especially if it's complicated :)

Footballers are made to build the muscle around their knees, quads especially, as it holds the knee joint tight and that makes perfect sense to avoid ACL injuries etc.

Much of that building will be done via "isolation" rather than "compound" exercises so the isolation exercises on legs are leg extensions and leg curls - i.e. you're only working one muscle/group at a time and that can cause problems in the real world away from the gym where you always use multiple groups of muscles together, especially when you're running.

If I've got leg problems like this or am talking to someone in the same situation I'm stopping them from doing any isolation exercises at all and making them do compound exercises instead - i.e. squats with as much weight as you can possibly handle so you're stressing your back down to your calves all at the same time and your weakest link amongst those muscle groups will hold you back/be forced to grow stronger in relation to the other muscle groups.

That's a real world stress that you can replicate in the gym and which will keep connected muscle groups strong relative to each other and help to reduce injury.

What's more, it actually makes you stronger in the real world to boot. Pit your average "puffed up" gym bunny against a guy or gal who lifts heavy stuff and walks around carrying that weight for a living every day and the gym bunny is often in for a surprise when it comes to real world strength, even if they look twice the size of the regular guy/gal ...
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‘Puffed up’ - Yep that’s the difference between sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (largely functionally useless) and myofibrial muscle development.

As an ex gymnast I agree to a point with you about the use of compound vs isolation exercises (and id probably ban footballers from going near leg extension machines for all kinds of reasons). The key is in developing true ‘system’ strength and endurance for players, where their stabiliser muscles aren’t creating inherent weaknesses in the chain because they’re being overshadowed by the larger ‘Instagram’ muscles.

The thing that gymnastics and yoga develops is strength and resilience when the muscle is at full extension. You rarely see gymnasts with things like hamstring injuries despite repeated explosive movements that are required - funny that eh?

I’d love to see footballers, especially young ones banned from the weight room and only let in under supervision and really only when they have developed enough joint strength and flexibility to make it worthwhile. There’s enough functional loading in football drills and training to naturally develop the legs etc (hence they tend to develop bigger calves etc due to the movements).

Anyway we’re not sure whether Keinan’s injury is a knock or from some inherent physiological problem. The above is just a personal rant about the naive stupidity and lack of understanding about muscular development in footballers who go uneducated into the weight room for personal vanity or pressure from coaches to ‘fill out’ etc.
 
The Fear said:
Disagree on that 58, a striker is there to score, body types make them different sorts yes, of course, totally. But goals are the main measure.
Click to expand...

Not always Fear.
Emile Heskey for one.
Never a prolific scorer but, Liverpool shattered their transfer record to land him.
Nobody gets as many international caps as Heskey got, without offering something that no one else can give.
Ask any striker who has played alongside him and they all love him.
Michael Owen and Robbie Fowler adored him.
 
danvilla2 said:
Keinan started and played his youth football for a semi professional club so I do wonder if you get the advice or treatment at that level to enable you to make an informed long term, career choice - it’s not easy to tell a manager at that age you don’t want to play because you want to rehab. You are a commodity against all the other kids being nurtured for a big money move (£10k is big money) and you need to get back to playing as quickly as you can. At 18, both my knees were shot and I stopped playing for a year (and went to uni and got pissed), playing for a semi pro youth team. The technology and resource obviously isn’t there, the manager who’s seen it for 20 years is your asvisorand he could’ve damaged himself beyond repair.

I don’t know what goes in professional academies but the kids need to be taught at an early age about the body, muscles and joints. It’s only recently I’ve started using resistance bands and foam rollers to try and sort my dodgy legs out.

Much of it is down to genetics, but you look at players like Bale, Messi and Ronaldo - they’ve been conditioned to stay fit and in shape, even in their early 30’s.
Click to expand...

I can sympathise danvilla2.
I used to play in goal until I dived into a post headfirst, made the save though, I was out for 8 months, fractured skull, when I got back, I hesitated going to that one side and couldn't overcome the hesitation, finished me as a keeper.
I then played out on the wing and had my ankle smashed. I came back from that only to have both my knee's done in a tackle in my return game. I ended up losing three of my knee tendons and I finally got the message and took up snooker.
 
1958Villan said:
Not always Fear.
Emile Heskey for one.
Never a prolific scorer but, Liverpool shattered their transfer record to land him.
Nobody gets as many international caps as Heskey got, without offering something that no one else can give.
Ask any striker who has played alongside him and they all love him.
Michael Owen and Robbie Fowler adored him.
Click to expand...

Yes, saw an Owen interview recently actually.

Ok, creating and scoring goals. Same point. And Heskey is another perfect example of a big lad who couldn't stay fit.
 
The Fear said:
Yes, saw an Owen interview recently actually.

Ok, creating and scoring goals. Same point. And Heskey is another perfect example of a big lad who couldn't stay fit.
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Which is exactly my original point really.
Like Emile Heskey and dozens of other players Keinan has been advised by someone to bulk up. Unfortunately he followed this advice and did it in the wrong way.
He should have taken what happened to Gabby as an example.
 
I would have assumed that fitness coaching at a premier league club would be second to none, I very much doubt he's going against any professional advice and any injuries he is getting are purely bad luck or bad body parts .
By that I mean just as anyone can get a bad heart, kidneys, liver etc despite living a healthy lifestyle, having a bad set of hamstrings is just the same. Perfectly ok for the average Joe but perhaps never going to be any good as a pro athlete.

Just a thought
 
1958Villan said:
Not always Fear.
Emile Heskey for one.
Never a prolific scorer but, Liverpool shattered their transfer record to land him.
Nobody gets as many international caps as Heskey got, without offering something that no one else can give.
Ask any striker who has played alongside him and they all love him.
Michael Owen and Robbie Fowler adored him.
Click to expand...
Heskey was a prolific scorer when Liverpool signed him, and he scored over 20 goals for liverpool in a single season once.

Keinan will have to start scoring and contributing to goals to make it at premier league level. So far in his very short career, his record hasnt been great, but this season when he has played he has looked dangerous and I think under Dean and his style of play, unlike under Bruce, he will get more opportunities to score and will score a lot more. Just like Grealish is.
 
I think you'll find Samattas goal was down to Davis holding the ball in the box and his shot getting deflected into the air.
I'm almost certain if Davis had played as much as Wesley has this season we wouldn't be in any danger of going down.

But I fear we may have another Keith Leonard situation
 
Villan57 said:
I think you'll find Samattas goal was down to Davis holding the ball in the box and his shot getting deflected into the air.
I'm almost certain if Davis had played as much as Wesley has this season we wouldn't be in any danger of going down.

But I fear we may have another Keith Leonard situation
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He was excellent in his last two appearances. I agree, if he started every game this season and was fully fit he would be on double figures by now and we would be safe.
 
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