The great big short Summer Transfer and "What the hell do we do now" Thread | Page 221 | Vital Football

The great big short Summer Transfer and "What the hell do we do now" Thread

Calvin Plummer

Vital Football Legend
Why should we ‘strip out’ our youth product from the first team stats in a vain attempt to justify your argument that the balance of the squad is wrong?
And why does a free player in his 30’s have no value? That’s certainly not true of Taylor who has got to be worth £3-4m based on the going rate for championship strikers.
And why, when a player turns 30 does he suddenly become obsolete? These are professional athletes not the proletariat from ‘Logan’s Run’.
Those inferences are the real nonsense.

Examples? Two of our three best players last season (Watson and Grabban) are 35 and 32 respectively. Were they useless? Or did their experience benefit the team?
Should we get rid of Grabban because he’s too old, or might he still contribute this season?

we need a balance of youth and experience which we are getting in place. It seems sensible to me to buy in the experience when it’s relatively cheap and to grow your own youth either to put in the squad or offset FFP.
In any case, our purchases include Blackett 26, freeman 28 and Soh 19, which reflects a balanced approach to our acquisition strategy not the one sided affair you would try and have us all believe.
Freeman is not a purchase and we strip out the youth products to look at the recruitment for the first team squad. You were the one who insisted that we only look at this window because apparently nothing else counts lol so I did and two thirds of our permanent signings are in their 30s.

But aye sure, recruitment is great and we are in great form, you can really see the progress.
 

radfordinlondon

Vital Champions League
So let’s be clear- we are talking about this summer’s recruitment because nothing else matters to this season‘s prospects. Past divorces matter not to the merits of the current spouse.
aging has beens or never beens is a pretty derogatory and sweeping statement for the likes of Colback freeman Blackett Taylor - all proven at this level and with several seasons yet to offer.
We don’t know how the foreign imports will fare yet but it’s probably unfair on the Olympiacos striker given that he’s taking a step down to come to us and it’s clearly a ludicrous statement to apply to Soh.
So that leaves us with Fred and a back up keeper on a 1 year deal.
That’s a pretty thin argument.

As for your correlation between age and lethargy, I think this may apply to middle aged suburbia but is tenuous to say the least in the professional world of football. I think you are confusing this with the type of player we need- ie ball carriers with pace. Wingers if you like.
I think we all know we need a couple of these, but I’m willing to bet SL knows it too and the window isn’t shut yet...
Post of the day imho
 

Calvin Plummer

Vital Football Legend
Players in the 20-24 age bracket that are 'ready made' to challenge for the first team are assets that every team is looking for, especially with our aspirations for the EPL and thus, we need players capable of stepping up, which therefore means we are going to face competition.

These clearly do not come cheap = Soh (£4m - with just a year on his contract at PSG).

The better 'UK' prospects, e.g. Cash £16m, are going for daft money and most clubs have such assets (as we do) on long contracts. Our dealings post covid, infer that we do not have the financial resources, without selling our own prized assets.

These signings also come with the risks that this won't work out = Zach Clough and arguably, Carvalho (& some of the other loanees we've had in recent years, Dowell, Semedo, Goncalves etc - list goes on).

Personally, I think we're doing more right than wrong, with the continued developmental recruitment at u23 level and then adding experience at Championship level, with cheaper (late 20's) foreign imports or the likes of Ameobi on 1yr deals.

The squad is definitely stronger and in the main, we have targetted our weaknesses - perhaps, with a few more to come?
Have we? We've lost leadership which we clearly lacked, we've lost passing from our central 2. We've lost the drive of Cash and Lolley will undoubtedly suffer as a consequence. The 2 performances the season had the same lack of movement and quick passing that was part our downfall last season.

Why is 2m on De Costa a better buy than say Gelhart who went for 900k? I'm not arguing against experience, just for a balanced economy.
 

Calvin Plummer

Vital Football Legend
Apart from it's bullshit, there is no balance in our recruitment. Nobody is arguing against experience, im arguing against it being almost exclusively our focus. Nobody is arguing there is no value to older players in terms of contributing but in terms of resale value the potential upside is tiny compared to an Ollie Watkins type signing who cost the same amount as De Costa.

But sure, let's pretend Taylor is worth 4m lmao
 

radfordinlondon

Vital Champions League
Have we? We've lost leadership which we clearly lacked, we've lost passing from our central 2. We've lost the drive of Cash and Lolley will undoubtedly suffer as a consequence. The 2 performances the season had the same lack of movement and quick passing that was part our downfall last season.

Why is 2m on De Costa a better buy than say Gelhart who went for 900k? I'm not arguing against experience, just for a balanced economy.
Think mao addressed that a post or two back. Not that easy when you are having to pull down wages. As okd said, i think we are doing more right than wrong. As dr was saying, pretty SL and crew are aware of what is needed since we have spent the window trying to plug gaps.

Performance on the pitch is what is needed, off pitch is going ok. Room for improvement but by no means problematic and certainly a better last 2 years then the 2 years before that.

Window not closed so lets wait and see.
 

Calvin Plummer

Vital Football Legend
Think mao addressed that a post or two back. Not that easy when you are having to pull down wages. As okd said, i think we are doing more right than wrong. As dr was saying, pretty SL and crew are aware of what is needed since we have spent the window trying to plug gaps.

Performance on the pitch is what is needed, off pitch is going ok. Room for improvement but by no means problematic and certainly a better last 2 years then the 2 years before that.

Window not closed so lets wait and see.
You think the wages are less for a Jenkinson type player than a young promising league 1 signing? OK...
 

radfordinlondon

Vital Champions League
Apart from it's bullshit, there is no balance in our recruitment. Nobody is arguing against experience, im arguing against it being almost exclusively our focus. Nobody is arguing there is no value to older players in terms of contributing but in terms of resale value the potential upside is tiny compared to an Ollie Watkins type signing who cost the same amount as De Costa.

But sure, let's pretend Taylor is worth 4m lmao
The debate lies in what the potential upside turns out in reality and that is not a science. Da costa may turn out to be the watson of this season.

Lets also not forget the last poor bastard MW who took that line to heart and recruited youth.

Think we all agree on balance and the debate on where that is keeps life interesting
 

Our Kids Dad

Alert Team
Staff member
Have we? We've lost leadership which we clearly lacked, we've lost passing from our central 2. We've lost the drive of Cash and Lolley will undoubtedly suffer as a consequence. The 2 performances the season had the same lack of movement and quick passing that was part our downfall last season.

Why is 2m on De Costa a better buy than say Gelhart who went for 900k? I'm not arguing against experience, just for a balanced economy.
I thought Da Costa was 1m Euro's rising to 2m, if he earns the 1 year contract extension built into his contract? Agree about Gelhart, also mentioned Josh Windass.

We've lost 1 player, in Watson - who prior to SL's arrival most were happy for him to leave. Granted, we miss his brains/leadership but he was one of the highest paid at the club - so, not extending his contract is fine by me.

We still have Dawson, for whatever limited appearances he makes and added Blackett, Freeman (loan to buy) & Colback - as they settle they will add value and hopefully leadership.

Personally, I think you are being unfairly harsh after 2 performances - arguably no worse than those post lockdown - but, with a host of new players and the shortest pre-season ever.

Selling Cash was unavoidable - sorry but you need to get over that, we are a selling club and £16m was incredible, when 12 months ago, he'd have been worth c£2m at best.

Lolley did fine before last season, so I don't buy the argument that he will suffer - Gabriel has real potential and Lolley is a professional footballer - they have to adapt.

As for balanced economy, transfers wise we're standing at a significant profit & like you, I'd love us to sign some decent 20-24 year olds, but I feel that the majority are our of our price range & hence, the gamble on u23 signings.


I just hope Sabri gets until Christmas so that he can actually work with the players & coaches he's brought in, but, he probably won't - plenty of other teams having early struggles too - Derby have played all 3 games at home and scored just once, losing 2 and beating Barrow on penalties after a 0-0.

Cardiff have lost 2, Boro lost last 2, Brentford lost their opening game & face Southampton away.

Keep the faith CP, time & patience!
 

Our Kids Dad

Alert Team
Staff member
I thought Da Costa was 1m Euro's rising to 2m, if he earns the 1 year contract extension built into his contract? Agree about Gelhart, also mentioned Josh Windass.

We've lost 1 player, in Watson - who prior to SL's arrival most were happy for him to leave. Granted, we miss his brains/leadership but he was one of the highest paid at the club - so, not extending his contract is fine by me.

We still have Dawson, for whatever limited appearances he makes and added Blackett, Freeman (loan to buy) & Colback - as they settle they will add value and hopefully leadership.

Personally, I think you are being unfairly harsh after 2 performances - arguably no worse than those post lockdown - but, with a host of new players and the shortest pre-season ever.

Selling Cash was unavoidable - sorry but you need to get over that, we are a selling club and £16m was incredible, when 12 months ago, he'd have been worth c£2m at best.

Lolley did fine before last season, so I don't buy the argument that he will suffer - Gabriel has real potential and Lolley is a professional footballer - they have to adapt.

As for balanced economy, transfers wise we're standing at a significant profit & like you, I'd love us to sign some decent 20-24 year olds, but I feel that the majority are our of our price range & hence, the gamble on u23 signings.


I just hope Sabri gets until Christmas so that he can actually work with the players & coaches he's brought in, but, he probably won't - plenty of other teams having early struggles too - Derby have played all 3 games at home and scored just once, losing 2 and beating Barrow on penalties after a 0-0.

Cardiff have lost 2, Boro lost last 2, Brentford lost their opening game & face Southampton away.

Keep the faith CP, time & patience!
There is also a very noticeable lack of fitness and injury niggles from last season.... Lolley is clearly not even close to 100%.

Silva & Sow have yet to feature and Colback, Watson & Taylor have not had any competitive football for 6 months.

I could well be wrong, but I think the squad depth and experience will reap dividends as match fitness and sharpness returns.
 

Calvin Plummer

Vital Football Legend
I thought Da Costa was 1m Euro's rising to 2m, if he earns the 1 year contract extension built into his contract? Agree about Gelhart, also mentioned Josh Windass.

We've lost 1 player, in Watson - who prior to SL's arrival most were happy for him to leave. Granted, we miss his brains/leadership but he was one of the highest paid at the club - so, not extending his contract is fine by me.

We still have Dawson, for whatever limited appearances he makes and added Blackett, Freeman (loan to buy) & Colback - as they settle they will add value and hopefully leadership.

Personally, I think you are being unfairly harsh after 2 performances - arguably no worse than those post lockdown - but, with a host of new players and the shortest pre-season ever.

Selling Cash was unavoidable - sorry but you need to get over that, we are a selling club and £16m was incredible, when 12 months ago, he'd have been worth c£2m at best.

Lolley did fine before last season, so I don't buy the argument that he will suffer - Gabriel has real potential and Lolley is a professional footballer - they have to adapt.

As for balanced economy, transfers wise we're standing at a significant profit & like you, I'd love us to sign some decent 20-24 year olds, but I feel that the majority are our of our price range & hence, the gamble on u23 signings.


I just hope Sabri gets until Christmas so that he can actually work with the players & coaches he's brought in, but, he probably won't - plenty of other teams having early struggles too - Derby have played all 3 games at home and scored just once, losing 2 and beating Barrow on penalties after a 0-0.

Cardiff have lost 2, Boro lost last 2, Brentford lost their opening game & face Southampton away.

Keep the faith CP, time & patience!
I'm aware we needed to sell Cash, but his loss still makes our squad weaker. Unless you're arguing it doesn't or it doesn't count for some reason? Look what happens when a promising kid gets game time, you make a vast profit. It won't work all the time but nor will signings of aging pros.

Derby, Reading etc have all signed promising players in that age range and our price bracket. Tyler Roberts is another available in our price range who has indicated he wants to leave to secure games. Good enough to help Leeds get promoted so why don't we take a 2m punt?
 

DR Forest

Vital Squad Member
Apart from it's bullshit, there is no balance in our recruitment. Nobody is arguing against experience, im arguing against it being almost exclusively our focus. Nobody is arguing there is no value to older players in terms of contributing but in terms of resale value the potential upside is tiny compared to an Ollie Watkins type signing who cost the same amount as De Costa.

But sure, let's pretend Taylor is worth 4m lmao
On the face of it, I agree that Da costa currently looks like a 'miss' and a bad one at that. But he's hardly played and we must remember that Watson was utter garbage before an astonishing turnaround last season. As for Taylor's value, we will have to agree to disagree on that- I still think he's worth £3-4m in this league no matter how much you laugh your arse off.

However, measuring the upside of players with the benefit of hindsight (especially when you use Watkins as illustration who is one of, if not the best example across all the teams in the whole league), isnt a true reflection of the general recruitment policy for one single club within that league.

The better measurement would be to compare Watkins to the many many signings Brentford took on that didnt make it. With no academy, they have a very different model to us- and thats another debate- but you could argue that our 'hit' ratio is higher if we compare our academy numbers to those Brentford signings. Cash. Worrall. Brereton. Appiah. Burke. Yates. Johnson. Gabriel. Mighten. Not bad eh?

You say no one is arguing there is no value to older players, but Im pretty sure I can identify at least one poster twisting points to do just that.

You are now trying to reduce your sweeping condemnation of 'has-beens and never-beens' to the single issue of resale value. Hmmm. You cant have it both ways; the real 'upside' of signing battle hardened troops is, of course, promotion.
There's never a guarantee of success, but we do appear to be making a decent fist of 'doing a Lesta'. Not even unearthing an Olly Watkins is worth £160m.
 

Our Kids Dad

Alert Team
Staff member
I'm aware we needed to sell Cash, but his loss still makes our squad weaker. Unless you're arguing it doesn't or it doesn't count for some reason? Look what happens when a promising kid gets game time, you make a vast profit. It won't work all the time but nor will signings of aging pros.

Derby, Reading etc have all signed promising players in that age range and our price bracket. Tyler Roberts is another available in our price range who has indicated he wants to leave to secure games. Good enough to help Leeds get promoted so why don't we take a 2m punt?
Of course selling Cash makes us weaker initially, but the monies received clearly have a much greater, positive impact (off field & hopefully on)- allowing the signing of Soh & possibly more AND giving an opportunity to Gabriel.

Tyler Roberts? - we've sold our own promising youngster, Tyler who clearly SL did not feel was up to it and with Grabban, Taylor & the new 'unknown MAG' - not sure he'd get an opportunity. I'd take a punt, but it's not my money & he wants game time, which I don't think he'll get.

Derby have also sold 2x promising youngsters to the Blades, like most clubs at our level are having to do. Interesting that all of the Rams fans I'm talking to are moaning that they lack experience and are playing too many youngsters.

What is noticeable, is that we are signing the more 'unknown' players, Miguel Angel Guerrero & Diallo on 1 year contracts, think Fred is a short term deal too and clearly Freeman is loan to buy.

I think these are nominal risk signings, like Ameobi was.

Colback, Blackett, Soh & Taylor all appear good business too.
 

Calvin Plummer

Vital Football Legend
On the face of it, I agree that Da costa currently looks like a 'miss' and a bad one at that. But he's hardly played and we must remember that Watson was utter garbage before an astonishing turnaround last season. As for Taylor's value, we will have to agree to disagree on that- I still think he's worth £3-4m in this league no matter how much you laugh your arse off.

However, measuring the upside of players with the benefit of hindsight (especially when you use Watkins as illustration who is one of, if not the best example across all the teams in the whole league), isnt a true reflection of the general recruitment policy for one single club within that league.

The better measurement would be to compare Watkins to the many many signings Brentford took on that didnt make it. With no academy, they have a very different model to us- and thats another debate- but you could argue that our 'hit' ratio is higher if we compare our academy numbers to those Brentford signings. Cash. Worrall. Brereton. Appiah. Burke. Yates. Johnson. Gabriel. Mighten. Not bad eh?

You say no one is arguing there is no value to older players, but Im pretty sure I can identify at least one poster twisting points to do just that.

You are now trying to reduce your sweeping condemnation of 'has-beens and never-beens' to the single issue of resale value. Hmmm. You cant have it both ways; the real 'upside' of signing battle hardened troops is, of course, promotion.
There's never a guarantee of success, but we do appear to be making a decent fist of 'doing a Lesta'. Not even unearthing an Olly Watkins is worth £160m.
How are we making a decent fist of it?

Tell you what, go through the last few seasons and see how many players in their 30s sold for 4m in the championship. I had a quick look and couldn't see any but could easily have missed some.

This discussion has always been about potential for development and resale. I'm sorry if you've jumped into something and not understood it. Can't really help you there.

We are also a far bigger club than Brentford, we can afford an academy and to sign promising players in the 20-25 bracket. Derby, Reading etc all managed it so your argument holds 0 water.

There's a reason why our wage bill is so high, churn of managers and expensive players who don't represent value for money. Gambling on a 22yr old is far less risky than a Jenkinson etc.
 

Calvin Plummer

Vital Football Legend
Of course selling Cash makes us weaker initially, but the monies received clearly have a much greater, positive impact (off field & hopefully on)- allowing the signing of Soh & possibly more AND giving an opportunity to Gabriel.

Tyler Roberts? - we've sold our own promising youngster, Tyler who clearly SL did not feel was up to it and with Grabban, Taylor & the new 'unknown MAG' - not sure he'd get an opportunity. I'd take a punt, but it's not my money & he wants game time, which I don't think he'll get.

Derby have also sold 2x promising youngsters to the Blades, like most clubs at our level are having to do. Interesting that all of the Rams fans I'm talking to are moaning that they lack experience and are playing too many youngsters.

What is noticeable, is that we are signing the more 'unknown' players, Miguel Angel Guerrero & Diallo on 1 year contracts, think Fred is a short term deal too and clearly Freeman is loan to buy.

I think these are nominal risk signings, like Ameobi was.

Colback, Blackett, Soh & Taylor all appear good business too.
They aren't nominal risk there when our wage to turnover ratio is so poor and obviously will be borderline catastrophic with loss of revenue. We need a constant stream of players to sell, what happens if the academy has a fallow period?

If Roberts was good enough to play over half Leeds games last season there is no reason to believe he wouldn't get time here over De Costa etc. They're better than us.
 

Basha73

Vital 1st Team Regular
They aren't nominal risk there when our wage to turnover ratio is so poor and obviously will be borderline catastrophic with loss of revenue. We need a constant stream of players to sell, what happens if the academy has a fallow period?

If Roberts was good enough to play over half Leeds games last season there is no reason to believe he wouldn't get time here over De Costa etc. They're better than us.
That’s one thing that should scare the crap out of people - the fact we are relying on selling mainly academy graduates to keep in line with FFP. As you say what happens if there is no one to sell?

I appreciate the board are trying to deal with it by reducing costs and increasing income but it can’t happen soon enough for me.

Championship clubs will always have to sell but we need to do it because it suits us, not because we have no other choice.