The Ashes. | Page 21 | Vital Football

The Ashes.

ORF, agree about the 'banter', I think that's gone way to far, to the point it's borderline abuse. If you need to stoop that low, then you are probably in the wrong profession.

As for the other stuff, well I find it all rather hypocritical, ball tampering as always gone on in one form or another.
Picking the seam, pulling a loose bit of leather up has always happened, at all levels of the game.
I can assure you there was no need for Hawaiian Tropic Bronzing Oil in Bassetlaw in April, but I know of many bowlers who found the need to protect a few stripes on their bodies, but only when fielding.......obviously at local league level, such things don't mean much, and very often the ball was about 5 games old soft and out of shape, but it still happened, it was part of the game.

Steve Smith is paid to win matches, being a nice guy and honoring the 'spirit' of the game, won't keep him in the job long if he loses Tests and Series on a regular basis.
I think the biggest mistake was giving the job to someone dumb enough to make it that obvious what was happening.....I guess we should be grateful he's only a cricketer!!
At the same time his efforts modified the ball so much, the umpires didn't feel the need to change it, so poor at tampering, and poor at hiding the tampering, great effort!!
Bancroft would have probably changed the ball more by making sure he threw it into the ground when he returned it to the keeper or bowler.....that's legal.

And where does it end? I feel doctoring wickets to suit you own teams characteristics is tampering just as much with the spirit of the game as rubbing the ball in dust, that goes on in every home series, but nothing ever gets said.
The Indian team, who are the biggest culprits of such actions, I note have been quite vocal about this event. Glass houses and stones springs to mind.
Similarly I'm not sure why politicians need to wade into the round with mock indignation, because they are so above board and righteous and never do anything wrong.

Enjoy the series, it's had some superb cricket

 
Feco, I agree all of your comments, nothing really new about this except that the action was so blatantly obvious and I just can't figure out how they thought they could get away with it. There has been a degree of nastiness about the games with S.A. for a few years now, I don't know the basis of it but it does remind me of two small boys each trying to prove his worth. And you're right about India, they control the purse strings and that's another lot Oz don't get on with. Begins to sound more like war than cricket, at least with the Ashes it really does appear more like friendly banter. Well mostly anyway.
I think that what's brought this on in part is that the SA bowler barred for two games and then pardoned was represented by a very expensive barrister over a period of six hours in a hearing where Smith wasn't even called to give his side of events. I watched the shoulder touch several times on TV and there was no doubt in my mind that it was intentional. Times have certainly changed and not for the better.

And you're right about the superb cricket although at times it sounds more like all out war. One more game to go and I thin k our lot have totally lost the mental side of it !

 
ORF, nobody would have known that Bancroft was doing what he was doing if they hadn't been specifically looking for it.
Most teams have a 'ball shiner' these days, Root did it for England before becoming Captain.
Obviously the SA team have been monitoring Bancroft, and I believe chose to make the situation as obvious as possible. It could have been reported to the match referee before being blasted all over the big screens and TV. It was done to cause the maximum embarrassment. Worked a treat.
Payback for the DuPlessis situation back in Australia last series? He is actually a serial ball tamperer, and now Captain of SA.....double standards or what?

Everyone knows how Australia play, it's been like it for years, I don't find it particularly offensive, it's just hard professional sport.
If the comments that DeKock has allegedly made to Warner are correct, that oversteps the mark and he should have been banned.
Likewise Rabada's ban should have been upheld, it was a deliberate action against Smith, countary to the rules, all caught on camera, no argument.
So I do find it particularly galling that former Australian cricketers and politicians have been quick to condem Smith and Bancroft whilst ignoring what else has happened in this and the previous series. No facts, just sound bites and a few column inches at the expense of two young sportsmen. Thanks for the support guys.

I appreciate what goes around comes around, and previous Australian behavior probably nullifies much sympathy, but I really think this event has been blown out of all proportion, and I do feel for Bancroft and Smith having their reputations tarnished so badly for doing what most cricketers have done at some point, whatever the level.

You are right, I think the team is shot at the moment, they definitely threw the game yesterday, probably just wanted to get out of town and regroup.

I've worked in SA a few times beautiful country, sadly the people aren't........I was always happy to get home.

 
Feco, it's hard to dispute your views again and I agree with most of your opinions, think you may have a bit more cricket knowledge than me. In this country, perhaps because we're new boys on the block relatively speaking, cricket at this level is taken at a very high level and talk of the "Baggy Green" suffering in any way at all is on a par with a death in the family. As a result our national papers have it all over the front page and TV, radio etc are all full of it to the point that it's beginning to irritate. Like you I find it hard to understand how our fellows could be so obvious with such a disregard for the rules.
Even so this business will leave a few problems over here with financial backers and the like, Bancroft will get away with no great problem by the sound of it but poor old Smith has made a mighty rod for his back and it looks at the moment as though his days as Captain have gone. There has been an almighty rush of older players and captains putting him down together with criticism of the cricketing authorities, current coach and everybody else connected. It's almost like a war breaking out again. Oddly enough though not much about Warner or the other senior players who may or may not have been involved.
On reflection I think you're right about the thing being blown out of proportion. Will be interesting to see how things pan out. I'll try to keep you informed from this end.

We do have some S.A.migrants over here, they tend to be a mixed bag but not short of cash and some a bit hard to get on with.


 
I'm surprised at the laid back approach to this. In athletics if you cheat by taking drugs you are thrown out for years (should be life). Spot fixing bowlers are banned for a year or two. This bunch PLANNED this. They should be thrown out of ALL cricket for at least 18 months, and it made clear in future that life bans will be given. Sport today is becoming a reflection of the low morals of society.
 
This weekend had a lot of bad sportsmanship. Did anyone watch the Portsmouth game v Ovford? An Oxford player hit the post with a penalty and one Portsmouth ran 15 yards straight at him and goaded him for missing and then went down twice when the fella hit him.The Oxford player not only missed a penalty but got sent off( quite rightly for hitting the player) but the player who goaded him and over reacted got nothing for cheating! Really wound me up that did!!!!!
 
This business is still number one on the news front here and it doesn't look as though it's going away soon either. The situation at the moment seems to be that Lehmann, head coach will resign today, Smith and Warner are said to have hatched the plan between them and the other senior professionals are said to be mad as hell at being dragged into it when in fact they knew nothing about it. Senior OZ Cricket officials are on the scene looking at who to blame and general opinion is that Smith has shot his bolt, for the moment anyway.

It's a bit of a laugh in one respect in that both Smith and Warner will still pick up a small fortune playing in the I.P.L. What they get playing for Australia is chicken feed by comparison although they will both probably lose any sponsorship they might have. Into the bargain they will have lost the hero worship of countless small boys and I reckon that will really hurt them. And it's not going to go away.

As might be expected every man and his dog here has an opinion and the very big majority want Smith and Warner to suffer in some way or other, the severity varies. The whole thing sits badly with many of our old straight up captains, understandingly so. The message coming over is that you don't mess with the " Baggy Green".

I think that Feco has his finger on the button when he points out that similar stuff has been happening for years, nothing new about it and what goes around comes around. And that this business has been blown out of all proportion. But this is Australia and bad news sells papers and in this case helps a Govt in decline. It won't go away just yet.

 
Lienking - 26/3/2018 17:01

I'm surprised at the laid back approach to this. In athletics if you cheat by taking drugs you are thrown out for years (should be life). Spot fixing bowlers are banned for a year or two. This bunch PLANNED this. They should be thrown out of ALL cricket for at least 18 months, and it made clear in future that life bans will be given. Sport today is becoming a reflection of the low morals of society.
Click to expand...

I don't think you can compare drug taking to ball tampering, the severity of the former is way more, for one thing it's way more dangerous for the participants health, particularly in the long term.

Ball tampering is more akin to the constant diving we now see on football pitches, I would call it gamesmanship more than cheating.
Michael Vaughan, our former England Captain and now regular BBC gobshite admits in his 17 years of playing professional cricket, that there wasn't a team he played in that didn't come "close to the line".
He's also right in saying the he believes 'ball tampering' occurred in The Ashes too, he just fails to mention by both sides were probably at it, and England weren't as good at doing it.

Nearly every honest professional has admitted the practice has gone on for ever, it's just a shame that the media and politicians have used the event to create such headlines. I mean nobody has died, and Australia lost the game as well.

Maybe they should remind all, whilst on their moral crusade, that the South African Captain DuPlessis has been found guilty of ball tampering twice......and both times he didn't do anything any other professional cricketer has not done.

Been a cracking series so far, looking forward to the last test.
 
Feco, lets hope that the last test is as good as you hope for, but I've got serious doubts. I think that the Aussies are mentally totally shot and bearing in mind that our two top batsmen are off the field it doesn't leave what I'd call much of a side. Even so funnier things have happened and I hope that we've recalled our fighting spirit and put up a proper fight.

Overall I think that both sides leave much to be desired in the "fair game dept" and the sooner the whole series is over the better I'll feel. At the moment I don't much care who wins, the series has left a sour taste in my mouth and I'll be glad to put it behind me.

Give me the Ashes every time.



:14:
 
Feco - 27/3/2018 10:12

Lienking - 26/3/2018 17:01

I'm surprised at the laid back approach to this. In athletics if you cheat by taking drugs you are thrown out for years (should be life). Spot fixing bowlers are banned for a year or two. This bunch PLANNED this. They should be thrown out of ALL cricket for at least 18 months, and it made clear in future that life bans will be given. Sport today is becoming a reflection of the low morals of society.
Click to expand...

I don't think you can compare drug taking to ball tampering, the severity of the former is way more, for one thing it's way more dangerous for the participants health, particularly in the long term.

Ball tampering is more akin to the constant diving we now see on football pitches, I would call it gamesmanship more than cheating.
Michael Vaughan, our former England Captain and now regular BBC gobshite admits in his 17 years of playing professional cricket, that there wasn't a team he played in that didn't come "close to the line".
He's also right in saying the he believes 'ball tampering' occurred in The Ashes too, he just fails to mention by both sides were probably at it, and England weren't as good at doing it.

Nearly every honest professional has admitted the practice has gone on for ever, it's just a shame that the media and politicians have used the event to create such headlines. I mean nobody has died, and Australia lost the game as well.

Maybe they should remind all, whilst on their moral crusade, that the South African Captain DuPlessis has been found guilty of ball tampering twice......and both times he didn't do anything any other professional cricketer has not done.

Been a cracking series so far, looking forward to the last test.
Click to expand...

I really don't see any difference. The athletes are only damaging their own health in an attempt to obtain fame and fortune. Of course cricketers now can also make millions . I'm afraid I'm old enough to remember football before the money came into the game. Diving could soon be cured by docking any cheating clubs 6 points after the game, and banning the player for three games. Why are defenders sent off for cynical fouls, but strikers are only booked?
Of course this now brings into question as to whether Australia were cheating in the Ashes too.
 
Lienking - 27/3/2018 22:09

Feco - 27/3/2018 10:12

Lienking - 26/3/2018 17:01

I'm surprised at the laid back approach to this. In athletics if you cheat by taking drugs you are thrown out for years (should be life). Spot fixing bowlers are banned for a year or two. This bunch PLANNED this. They should be thrown out of ALL cricket for at least 18 months, and it made clear in future that life bans will be given. Sport today is becoming a reflection of the low morals of society.
Click to expand...

I don't think you can compare drug taking to ball tampering, the severity of the former is way more, for one thing it's way more dangerous for the participants health, particularly in the long term.

Ball tampering is more akin to the constant diving we now see on football pitches, I would call it gamesmanship more than cheating.
Michael Vaughan, our former England Captain and now regular BBC gobshite admits in his 17 years of playing professional cricket, that there wasn't a team he played in that didn't come "close to the line".
He's also right in saying the he believes 'ball tampering' occurred in The Ashes too, he just fails to mention by both sides were probably at it, and England weren't as good at doing it.

Nearly every honest professional has admitted the practice has gone on for ever, it's just a shame that the media and politicians have used the event to create such headlines. I mean nobody has died, and Australia lost the game as well.

Maybe they should remind all, whilst on their moral crusade, that the South African Captain DuPlessis has been found guilty of ball tampering twice......and both times he didn't do anything any other professional cricketer has not done.

Been a cracking series so far, looking forward to the last test.
Click to expand...

I really don't see any difference. The athletes are only damaging their own health in an attempt to obtain fame and fortune. Of course cricketers now can also make millions . I'm afraid I'm old enough to remember football before the money came into the game. Diving could soon be cured by docking any cheating clubs 6 points after the game, and banning the player for three games. Why are defenders sent off for cynical fouls, but strikers are only booked?
Of course this now brings into question as to whether Australia were cheating in the Ashes too.
Click to expand...

Ashes, you can be pretty sure that both teams were at it but in a much more moderate fashion which was always settled by the umpires. Good example would be the fielder throwing the ball in short, designed to land in a gravelly patch. I watched a lot of the Ashes and that sort of stuff was common as muck until the umpires put their oar in and settled it quite gently. This last series was different, unfortunately.
Sport these days is generally governed by money, soccer perhaps more so than cricket, and it dictates terms in many ways, more's the pity.
You perhaps should have been there in the old days when most teams were represented by part timers, everything seemed to be a bit different, and much more believable.

 
I think there is a huge difference between the use of drugs and other forms of cheating. Drugs are part of a long term programme, the participant and the team set out deliberately to cheat from outset, and the long term health issues are really unknown. I just feel that is a much more serious situation to roughing up a bit of leather.

Ball tampering is much more spur of the moment event, I can assure you if the ball is working for the bowler from the box, he will do all he can to protect it from any damage. It's only when things are not happening will it get worked on.

I accept it's cheating, and shouldn't happen, but it does, and always has.

In regards to the money in the game, I think the introduction of the IPL will have a serious impact on the traditional game.
You are quite correct, too much money for mediocrity. Sadly with money comes even greater pressure for teams to win at all costs.

As for The Ashes, both side were undoubtedly at it, it's just England wasn't very good. To be honest, it's probably the only way to get the Kookaburra ball to do anything after 15 overs anyway!!

I'm old enough to remember football, when players didn't go over when they felt a touch, constant free kicks for effectively falling over.
Money has undoubtedly brought benefits to the game, but also many negatives, and that's why nothing will change, despite most fans knowing what's needed.
 
Old Red Fart - 27/3/2018 11:37

Feco, lets hope that the last test is as good as you hope for, but I've got serious doubts. I think that the Aussies are mentally totally shot and bearing in mind that our two top batsmen are off the field it doesn't leave what I'd call much of a side. Even so funnier things have happened and I hope that we've recalled our fighting spirit and put up a proper fight.

Overall I think that both sides leave much to be desired in the "fair game dept" and the sooner the whole series is over the better I'll feel. At the moment I don't much care who wins, the series has left a sour taste in my mouth and I'll be glad to put it behind me.

Give me the Ashes every time.



:14:
Click to expand...

I think they will be up for it, particularly given the events this evening, one or two will want to put the record straight, they are still a very good team.

Given the altitude at Joburg I expect it will be a battle of the quicks, and at the moment, I think the Australian attack is better than SA.

I don't expect we will see either Smith or Warner back in Test Cricket which is a real shame, the long game cannot afford to lose such talent.
Still the 20/20 game will gain, more strength for halfwit cricket!!
 
Feco - 28/3/2018 07:29

Old Red Fart - 27/3/2018 11:37

Feco, lets hope that the last test is as good as you hope for, but I've got serious doubts. I think that the Aussies are mentally totally shot and bearing in mind that our two top batsmen are off the field it doesn't leave what I'd call much of a side. Even so funnier things have happened and I hope that we've recalled our fighting spirit and put up a proper fight.

Overall I think that both sides leave much to be desired in the "fair game dept" and the sooner the whole series is over the better I'll feel. At the moment I don't much care who wins, the series has left a sour taste in my mouth and I'll be glad to put it behind me.

Give me the Ashes every time.



:14:
Click to expand...

I think they will be up for it, particularly given the events this evening, one or two will want to put the record straight, they are still a very good team.

Given the altitude at Joburg I expect it will be a battle of the quicks, and at the moment, I think the Australian attack is better than SA.

I don't expect we will see either Smith or Warner back in Test Cricket which is a real shame, the long game cannot afford to lose such talent.
Still the 20/20 game will gain, more strength for halfwit cricket!!
Click to expand...

Agreed. Just woken up to learn that the three culprits are on their way home, I doubt whether we'll ever hear the full story.If Oz are to get a smell in this match it will sure be up to the bowlers to ensure it.
I will never be able to watch 20/20 stuff and even though my wife thinks it's great I don't think she properly understands Ashes cricket. Strange business, proves to me there's no connection between the two !

 
Cheating bastards - should be banned from test cricket sine die.
Warner claimed post the Ashes series of ball tampering - what an absolute arse!
 
ThePromisedLand - 28/3/2018 21:01

Cheating bastards - should be banned from test cricket sine die.
Warner claimed post the Ashes series of ball tampering - what an absolute arse!
Click to expand...

Take it easy old son, ball tampering has been going on since I was a lad and that's a bloody long time ago. Unfortunately for Warner he has a bit of a reputation for being a trouble maker and he appears to have a short fuse to go with it. Doesn't help, especially in a situation like this. I was reading the local paper today and there was a longish article from Smiths father, I won't repeat it but it was enough if you were a parent to bring tears to your eyes. A serious mistake for Smith and I doubt that he'll ever make a proper recovery. Bancroft is a learner and inexperienced and I make no excuse on his behalf but for him it's a hard lesson learned.
I believe the real culprit here was Warner who has a pretty poor reputation already but it might pay to keep in mind that he's suffered badly on the field with what most of us would call filthy sledging from the opposition. Way beyond the pail. This has possibly ended his cricket life.

If you ever get the chance to talk to Broad or Anderson about their share of ball tampering I suggest you sit back and listen.

 
It's quite remarkable that Smith has been banned from all cricket for a year, and effectively removed from the Captain's position for ever, for one episode of ball tampering. One that he physically didn't do by the way, just oversaw.
DuPlessis gets found guilty of actual ball tampering twice, and as a reward becomes South African Cricket Captain. Double standards or what?

Maybe Smith was born in the wrong country.
 
Feco - 28/3/2018 22:31

It's quite remarkable that Smith has been banned from all cricket for a year, and effectively removed from the Captain's position for ever, for one episode of ball tampering. One that he physically didn't do by the way, just oversaw.
DuPlessis gets found guilty of actual ball tampering twice, and as a reward becomes South African Cricket Captain. Double standards or what?

Maybe Smith was born in the wrong country.
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware of that but think it's a bit drastic. He's not the best captain we've had but has always appeared to be honest. In this business I think he's found Warner a bit too much to cope with and now he's paying the price. And that's understandable. Perhaps his character has just not been strong enough to stand up to Warner and his antics, although he too has a bit of sympathy if the talk of sledging on his wifes sexual history is correct, and I think it is. What a mess.
My opinion of the S.A. sides has always been a bit poor but this series has confirmed it, They will probably have won the series but have lost what little bit of respect I ever had for them.

Maybe it's my imagination but I can't recall this sort of stuff happening in the old days. Real old days is what I mean.

 
Drastic?
Warner & Smith should’ve been banned sine die - absolutely no excuse whatsoever.
Bancroft I have some sympathy for - he was clearly working to the instructions of his skipper & vice captain.
No place for this in the game. Any suggestion that this has been happening for years is no excuse.
No Smith or Warner in the IPL or in England this year - they will not be missed!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.