🚹 Tanguy Ndombélé - Player Thread | Page 31 | Vital Football

🚹 Tanguy Ndombélé - Player Thread

To qualify my point: whilst the CL final was an exceptional achievement, our league form from the start of 2019 was dire. The thinking last summer had to be to get us into Champions League qualification form in the league. Subsequently he didn't.

There was also Poch's body language from the day after the CL final defeat. He was depressed and downbeat. The signings didn't seem to buoy him at all. I think this transmitted to the players. Pre-season wasn't good by all accounts. When the season resumed the players no longer seemed committed to him. He looked to me like he wanted out. Maybe the series of near misses was too much for him and he just needed a break. But I think the signs were there from immediately after that CL final defeat.

I don't disagree our form was extremely poor, there were many factors for that and I won't bother going into them now. However. I fully disagree that Poch was clinging on to his role in the summer. His position wasn't in any way under threat except if he decided to walk (which presumably he assured Ndombele he wouldn't do if he joined) and the idea that Tanguy should have anticipated him being fired is a little ridiculous imo.
 
I don't disagree our form was extremely poor, there were many factors for that and I won't bother going into them now. However. I fully disagree that Poch was clinging on to his role in the summer. His position wasn't in any way under threat except if he decided to walk (which presumably he assured Ndombele he wouldn't do if he joined) and the idea that Tanguy should have anticipated him being fired is a little ridiculous imo.
I said his role was tenuous not that he was clinging on. And that he was fired a few months later supports that. If the CL final secured his position, surely it would have least been for another season?

"and the idea that Tanguy should have anticipated him being fired is a little ridiculous imo.'' I don't know what you mean by this? This is not something I said.
 
I said his role was tenuous not that he was clinging on. And that he was fired a few months later supports that. If the CL final secured his position, surely it would have least been for another season?

"and the idea that Tanguy should have anticipated him being fired is a little ridiculous imo.'' I don't know what you mean by this? This is not something I said.

This is what you said

footballers have to be aware that the position of a football manager is one of the most precarious jobs in the world. So if they sign a long-term contract in all probability the manager they signed for is unlikely still to be there if they see out their contract. They (footballers) have to adapt and the vast majority do. And Poch only had a tenuous hold on his position last summer.
 
This is what you said

footballers have to be aware that the position of a football manager is one of the most precarious jobs in the world. So if they sign a long-term contract in all probability the manager they signed for is unlikely still to be there if they see out their contract. They (footballers) have to adapt and the vast majority do. And Poch only had a tenuous hold on his position last summer.
The point I was making in the context of the discussion I was having with Ex was that when players sign five- or six-year contracts, in all probability the manager they signed for won't be there for the duration of their contract. So they need to be adaptable and ready to play for whoever is in charge. They sign to play for the club not the manager even if the manager has some sway in them joining in the first place.
 
Because it proved that on our day our first 11 perhaps 12 or 13 could compete with anyone; what they couldn't do is do it week in week out by then as they'd been played into the ground. That was Poch's fault.

That CL run was magnificent and we played in part some great football, if Poch had behaved differently for the final, the result could have been very different.

You make your own luck, and if we did have any, it was home made.

VAR had a massive say against City. We would have been knocked out if it didn't exist. Had nothing to do with making your own luck. Even though I agree with that statement in most cases.
 
VAR had a massive say against City. We would have been knocked out if it didn't exist. Had nothing to do with making your own luck. Even though I agree with that statement in most cases.
First leg VAR went against us. Hugo saved the resulting penalty & we went on to win the 1st leg 1-0. That had a huge bearing on the tie. It gave us the freedom in the 2nd leg to snap at their heels in order to bag the killer away goal. Through a combination of tactical bravery & yes, admittedly a bit of luck too, it succeeded.
 
The point I was making in the context of the discussion I was having with Ex was that when players sign five- or six-year contracts, in all probability the manager they signed for won't be there for the duration of their contract. So they need to be adaptable and ready to play for whoever is in charge. They sign to play for the club not the manager even if the manager has some sway in them joining in the first place.

Players generally are pretty adaptable but the modern top-level manager requires players to stick to very strict tactical plans that might be exactly opposite to their last manager's tactics so it makes sense for players to take time to adapt.

Its very easy to point the fingers at players for not being adaptable but head coachs are the most immovable forces in football these days. They should be way more adaptable than they are.
 
First leg VAR went against us. Hugo saved the resulting penalty & we went on to win the 1st leg 1-0. That had a huge bearing on the tie. It gave us the freedom in the 2nd leg to snap at their heels in order to bag the killer away goal. Through a combination of tactical bravery & yes, admittedly a bit of luck too, it succeeded.

I have no problem receiving the luck we got against City and perhaps a couple of other occasions. We would have beaten Juventus with VAR in place. Not to mention if Anthony Taylor used his smarts, we would have been playing an FA Cup semi-final against 10 men after what Antonio Valencia did. Luck and decisions were due to come our way at some point.

That is completely different topic from admitting that we were simply a terrible side for the whole of 2019 and 2020. We weren't CL final quality in any shape or form. We were constantly outplayed by loads of teams in every competition in 2019 and I still gave no clue how we ended up in the final. Having watched every minute of every game, I sort of feel sorry for the teams that went out at our expense. So, so different from when we were the better team home and away agains Juventus and deserved to go through.

What frustrated me the most was that the same set of players couldn't get up for league games but mustered some sort of half hearted effort for the CL games. We are still dealing with that apathy at the club even today and it should have been nipped in the bud when it first emerged.
 
What was the VAR luck we got against City anyway? Llorente's goal, as the penalty law stood then, was legit. And Sterling was offside. If there was no VAR and Sterling's goal had stood, once the replays were shown afterwards we would have all been bemoaning how we had been robbed by an offside goal.
 
I have no problem receiving the luck we got against City and perhaps a couple of other occasions. We would have beaten Juventus with VAR in place. Not to mention if Anthony Taylor used his smarts, we would have been playing an FA Cup semi-final against 10 men after what Antonio Valencia did. Luck and decisions were due to come our way at some point.

That is completely different topic from admitting that we were simply a terrible side for the whole of 2019 and 2020. We weren't CL final quality in any shape or form. We were constantly outplayed by loads of teams in every competition in 2019 and I still gave no clue how we ended up in the final. Having watched every minute of every game, I sort of feel sorry for the teams that went out at our expense. So, so different from when we were the better team home and away agains Juventus and deserved to go through.

What frustrated me the most was that the same set of players couldn't get up for league games but mustered some sort of half hearted effort for the CL games. We are still dealing with that apathy at the club even today and it should have been nipped in the bud when it first emerged.
It's always been that way. Play like Brazil one day, Accrington Stanley the next. Didn't help that certain players were more than willing to throw Poch under the bus.

Jose's been here for a while now, so he'll have a handle on who should stay & who should go. He intimated as much during the latest press conference. I still believe there are a couple of bad seeds from Poch's era (there has to be) that need to be excised from our club. The sooner they are, the better.

Until Jose has been backed with some of his own players, players he can trust & rely on, the sooner he can turn our fortunes around. He needs to be backed though, that much is plainly obvious.
 
It's always been that way. Play like Brazil one day, Accrington Stanley the next. Didn't help that certain players were more than willing to throw Poch under the bus.

Jose's been here for a while now, so he'll have a handle on who should stay & who should go. He intimated as much during the latest press conference. I still believe there are a couple of bad seeds from Poch's era (there has to be) that need to be excised from our club. The sooner they are, the better.

Until Jose has been backed with some of his own players, players he can trust & rely on, the sooner he can turn our fortunes around. He needs to be backed though, that much is plainly obvious.

Exactly, to date Jose has not bought one single defensive player at our football club. He has promoted Japhet, got Rose out of sight and moved Wanyama on. He has then been honest with Dier and helped him to get his head straight about playing centre half. Including Toby's contact extension, it's all subtle changes in the first phase. That probably includes hard work with Sess on the training ground.

He knows just like we do that half of the 12 or 13 squad players that form our defensive unit in all positions need upgrading. He now needs to get to work and move into phase 2 and that has to include transfer activity.
 
What was the VAR luck we got against City anyway? Llorente's goal, as the penalty law stood then, was legit. And Sterling was offside. If there was no VAR and Sterling's goal had stood, once the replays were shown afterwards we would have all been bemoaning how we had been robbed by an offside goal.

Llorentes goal was not legit. Any goal involving the arm can not be legit. It came off his arm then hip. That should have been disallowed. The ref said he gave the goal because he didn't think it hit his arm. Watch his reaction when he viewed VAR. It was a 50/50 decision which many refs would have ruled out. That makes it lucky.

Sterlings goal was full of analysis. Eriksen passed the ball which hit Bernado which then went through to Augero that was slightly offside. Some refs give the advantage to the attacker in that situation and some refs would have gave the goal as it wasn't a direct pass from a City player.

Them 2 goals were full of luck. But was long over due as Mutters said.
 
Llorentes goal was not legit. Any goal involving the arm can not be legit. It came off his arm then hip. That should have been disallowed. The ref said he gave the goal because he didn't think it hit his arm. Watch his reaction when he viewed VAR. It was a 50/50 decision which many refs would have ruled out. That makes it lucky.

Sterlings goal was full of analysis. Eriksen passed the ball which hit Bernado which then went through to Augero that was slightly offside. Some refs give the advantage to the attacker in that situation and some refs would have gave the goal as it wasn't a direct pass from a City player.

Them 2 goals were full of luck. But was long over due as Mutters said.
The Llorente goal was legit. The rule about goals not being scored with the arm came in at the end of that season. There was no reason to rule out his rule according to the rules at that time. His arm was in a natural position so it stands.

That should still be the rule today so you don't end up with stupid goals being ruled out like ours against Sheffield or City's against us in the league.

The Sterling goal again was correct application of the rules. You may argue that those rules in the past may have been different, but at the time they were correct. It is just as lucky that he was offside as it was lucky for city that it came off of the city player and into Sterling's path.
 
Look lads we're going round in circles here. What the Champions League run highlighted was this motley crew is capable of doing so much more. I'm of the opinion that the mentality of some of the guys is pretty weak. Jose was 100% right to highlight it. Now it's up to them to prove him & the rest of us wrong. Watch this space...

I think Jose is right although he possibly should have kept it private. We could see player power raising its ugly head again.
 
The Llorente goal was legit. The rule about goals not being scored with the arm came in at the end of that season. There was no reason to rule out his rule according to the rules at that time. His arm was in a natural position so it stands.

That should still be the rule today so you don't end up with stupid goals being ruled out like ours against Sheffield or City's against us in the league.

The Sterling goal again was correct application of the rules. You may argue that those rules in the past may have been different, but at the time they were correct. It is just as lucky that he was offside as it was lucky for city that it came off of the city player and into Sterling's path.

The point is, luck was involved. We are doing Scott Parker 360's here.
 
Credit where its due. I thought he did well when he came on yesterday. Sure, still doesn't look fit enough, but we looked more comfortable on the front foot with him on the pitch. I know it was against hapless Bournmouth and this could be a flash in the pan, but his cameo, apart from a solid Hugo, was a lone bright spot in an utterly abject performance yesterday evening.