Syria Bombing?

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
What do people think of the idea of bombing?

Seems indiscriminate to me, I'd have thought boots on the ground (with all nations involved) is the only way to sort this?

Interesting post from an MP:



Clive Lewis MP
12 hrs · Edited ·
A Statement on the Possible Parliamentary Vote to Extend UK Military Operations to Syria

Dear Friend,
As you be aware the Prime Minister has, this week, set out his case for UK forces to engage in a bombing campaign of ISIL/ISIS in Syria.
Technically the PM could use the royal prerogative and authorise air-strikes without Parliament’s approval. However, the past ten years has seen a strengthening of the political convention that, quite rightly, gives Parliament a non-binding but still crucial say in initiating armed conflict.
If, as expected, the Prime Minister seeks a vote in Parliament next week calling for air-strikes in Syria I, like many other MPs, will be asked to make the gravest of decisions.
I know that if I vote to allow air-strikes in Syria it is almost inevitable that innocent women and children, alive now as I write this message, maybe dead within days of that decision. Even with the UK’s ‘precision bombing’ capabilities, this is inevitable.
Many have said the ‘first duty’ of a government is to protect and defend its own citizens. I agree with this entirely. However, I believe this must be balanced by two other considerations.
1. The long-term implications of any action that may ultimately undermine this ‘first duty’.
2. The moral necessity to value all human life, irrelevant of nationality.
For the record, I am not a pacifist. I respect deeply those that are, but can not say it is a philosophy I can adhere to.
Having served in Afghanistan I have seen and experienced warfare, first-hand. I understand there are occasions when military force is necessary. Therefore, I will not rule out supporting the use of military force against ISIL. However, the use of such force must not be an end in itself.
If there is one thing the ‘war on terror’ has shown, it is that military force alone is rarely the answer. We’ve been engaged in this ‘war’ for 15 years with with no end in sight. It has cost millions of lives, trillions of dollars, destabilised an entire region and arguably spawned a series of global, jihadist terror networks.
It was Einstein who said the definition of insanity 'Is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results'. After 15 years of ‘war’ perhaps now is the time to rethink our strategy.
As such, I greatly valued the five ‘areas of risk’, as set out by the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, that provided a well rounded, rational, pre-requisite set conditions for extending the bombing of ISIL to Syria. I also appreciate the Prime Minister’s attempt this week to answer those conditions before the House.
It is my opinion, after careful consideration of his case and taking into account the other personal considerations mentioned above, that the Prime Minister has failed to answer those conditions.
Two key issues particularly confound me.
1. The glaring omission of almost any credible, military plan for regional ground-forces to capitalize on these air-strikes. Simply put Syria is a mess. The 70,000 Free Syrian Army troops the Prime Minister mentioned, even if they exist – and these numbers are highly questionable – are not a plausible force as currently configured. It would mean two disparate forces, separated by hundreds of miles, would need to desist from defending their homes and travel through Assad/jihadist held territory under air attack from Russia. Once there they would need to coordinate their ground campaign with Kurdish fighters, who themselves are being bombed by Turkey – our NATO ally.
2. A credible political solution. By refusing to rule out dealing with Assad – a butcher that has killed ten times the number of people that ISIL has – the Prime Minister has made a political solution almost impossible. With Russia and Iran supporting him, Assad is going nowhere for now. The unpalatable truth is that some unsavoury political elements may have to be dealt with if defeating ISIL is considered our main effort. Not acknowledging this reality is a serious hindrance for any credible, long-term strategy.
Failure in these two areas alone means the Prime Minister’s plan has no discernable exit strategy. Add in the fact ISIL wants western military engagement for its own recruitment purposes (both in Syria/Iraq and of the European ‘home-grown variety’) and you begin to see how the cycle of violence for the failed ‘war on terror’ begins yet again.
Ultimately, I believe a true friend and ally must sometimes tell its friends hard-truths. France and the US are mistaken in their overtly military approach. With the downing of the Russian jet last week, this conflict is now a potential super-power flash-point.
The world has failed the Syrian people. We must not compound that failure by deepening the conflict and prolonging the war. Only a political solution will de-escalate this situation, end the civil war, allow for the defeat of ISIL and begin the process of tackling the wider causes of jihadist terroism.
(Please send me your views on this issue as I would appreciate a feel for your own observations and thoughts.)
Regards,
Clive Lewis MP
Norwich South


 
Clive speaks sense, the Russians boimbing yet expecting the seperate army rebels to somehow us get them all to unite against ISIL in Syria as they am bombed by Russia is never going to happen, also bombing ISIL when they am vastly spread and hide amongst ordinary living people so bombs alone won't work, it's all a mess thats the fact and the only solution i can see is biting the bullet and allowing Assad backing for now to stop the mess over there which since we backed rebels to destabalise ASSAD has caused this mess in the first place,

But common sense never provails with this lot running the show so i can see eventually us all having a ground troops force over there if these ISIL attacks kick off more frequent in Europe and USA, then we will be bogged down as this former soldier says we was in Afghan for 15 years,

What is the answer to this mess act or no action i feel we am damned if we do and damned if we don't tbh
 
There doesn't seem to be a clear palatable solution, I think we all know that. Do we bomb Syria? I don't know.

Clive Lewis has obviously seen action as he's served in Afghanistan, and he makes some good points. However, I cannot see a political solution plausible at the moment. How is the Civil War in Syria going to be ended in a political fashion? and more importantly (at present), will that allow for the defeat of daesh? I hope it is not being suggested that a political settlement can be reached with daesh!...... You cannot reason with these subhumans!

It was only about 10 days ago that it was reported the Secuirty Services in the UK said that they had stopped about 5-6 probable terrorist atrocities this year alone. So what do we do?

Do we wait until a 'successful' terrorist atrocity to happen in the UK before we do decide to do something? There will be repercussions from the jihadists if we do there will be repercussions from the jihadists if we don't.... they're already trying.

Recruitment of islamic jihadists will continue whatever the vote be. I would much prefer the recruiters and agitators to be rounded up first, that would be a good start....they know who they are...or most of them as they have them watched. Then decide what perhaps. At least that could stall any repercussions in the pipeline and slow down recruitment/brainwashing.

 
I still think Pride dude bombing alone won't stop ISIS ground troops which nobody wants will have to be deployed imho
 
Has to be a mix. Sounds to me at the moment we have a half hearted plan to just bomb.

Imagine this was your home town?

So Redditch has some of these cowards planning terrorism and horror. They decide to bomb. They kill my parents in these bombings.

Before I was against or neutral. Now what will I become?

They are saying strategic bombing... but we all remember the mistake when they bombed a school full of kids?

The difference between these cowards is they will hide amongst the civilians to shield themselves. Our (and other counties) troops will do anything to be away from civilians to shield them.

Has to be boots on the ground and has to be from all nations I think. Ken Livingstone (of all people!) I agreed with on QT the other night saying exactly this.
 
Are there any schools left were daesh currently occupy? If they are, they are hard line islamic schools teaching the next generation of islamic jihadists, so I would say yeah, go for it.

If troops go in, it has to be Nato forces, not just one country or two but a good number combined.
 
Pride of Lions - 28/11/2015 11:30

Are there any schools left were daesh currently occupy? If they are, they are hard line islamic schools teaching the next generation of islamic jihadists, so I would say yeah, go for it.

That's just sick.
 
We have absolutely no justification for carrying out air strikes in Syria. The only reason we're doing it is to show solidarity with the French and to try and show off to Putin.

Getting our retaliation in first is a totally unacceptable way to conduct ourselves, and I have to say I think Ken Livingston was right on QT the other night - Blair's interference in Iraq, against advice, directly led to the 7/7 bombings.

We just never learn, and poking the nest this time is going to achieve nothing but more bloodshed in this country at some stage. Carrying out air strikes will achieve nothing at all positive, and for me is just some vanity, face-saving project for Cameron a la Iraq & Blair in 2003.
 
Pride of Lions - 28/11/2015 11:30



If troops go it, it has to be Nato forces, not just one country or two but a good number combined.

I agree with you and Fear on this, a world wide effort to exterminate ISIS is the only way but even then we have the in house problems of extreemism here at home, this is gonna be a long long war/civil war type thing i feel mate and no military action is gonna suddenly stop them, but we would at least hit the murderor's over there where extreemists am flocking to train so thats a start i suppose.
 
What's left worth bombing by now after the Yanks,Syrians,Russians and French have done it already.

Redditch on the over hand - certainly a much more palatable target imo.

re 'directly' leading to the 7/7 bombings is just apologist guff tbh.
(tinfoilers reckon it was the cia anyway innit)
 
The last 14 years since 9/11 have shown that the war on terror can't be won by military means. We need to be more effective in disrupting their supply chain of people willing to become radicalised, weaponry and above all finance.

There is no political solution where fundamentalists are concerned, and military action of any sort has proved ineffective. What possible success could adding British capability to what's already being conducted by France, Russia and others? I just don't get the mentality of people who think we should solve the problem by bombing the hell out of it :26:
 
Well you can't bomb an ideology can you, we have to do something though, you simply can't stand by and do nothing, but rushing in with bombs and inevitably creating more bad feeling towards the west? I am not convinced!
 
France got involved and paid consequences, Russia got involved and paid the consequences. Britain getting involved in a bombing campaign could spell yet more trouble.

The ONLY way to end the problems in Syria, is through education. Humanity needs to some how find a way of educating people(all over the world) that joining terrorist organisations is wrong. We have to move forward from this as a species on this planet.
 
I think we all know by now governments am corrupt so these bombing campaigns get made out to stop the baddies getting us when in truth they am used as stories to get our militaries in countries for other reasons is my onion on it all,
 
Green Tea - 28/11/2015 11:44

France got involved and paid consequences, Russia got involved and paid the consequences. Britain getting involved in a bombing campaign could spell yet more trouble.

The ONLY way to end the problems in Syria, is through education. Humanity needs to some how find a way of educating people(all over the world) that joining terrorist organisations is wrong. We have to move forward from this as a species on this planet.

:1:
 
JuanPabloAngel - 28/11/2015 18:41

The last 14 years since 9/11 have shown that the war on terror can't be won by military means. We need to be more effective in disrupting their supply chain of people willing to become radicalised, weaponry and above all finance.

There is no political solution where fundamentalists are concerned, and military action of any sort has proved ineffective. What possible success could adding British capability to what's already being conducted by France, Russia and others? I just don't get the mentality of people who think we should solve the problem by bombing the hell out of it :26:


Yeah, I agree with that too. It is the supply chain we need to sever. As I touched on in my earlier post, round these agitators/recruiters up. It shouldn't matter the they are 'UK citizens', what they are planning and recruiting for is TREASON. Therefore, they should be rounded up and sent to daesh, were the Russians, French etc etc can bomb them all they wish for all I care.

Also go after their bank accounts, assets and anyone found supplying arms to them. Hit the fuckers were it hurts.......

 
You cannot beat fire with fire. Killing is wrong and two wrongs do not make a right. Some of the greatest teachers and advocates of peace will always tell you that education is the way forward. From the troubles in South Africa to Northern Ireland etc, the ONLY way we ended the killing was through education, peace and working together. Bombing, fighting, killing etc, especially with the weaponry we have today, will just end in tears and destroy humanity as a whole.

The people involved in ISIS and other terrorist groups are humans, just like you and me. The education they have received has corrupted the way they perceive things around them. People can change, we just need to work together and show them the way. With the media, internet and communications we have at our disposal today - surely those with intelligent minds can find a way to reach out to those being corrupted?
 
Green Tea - 28/11/2015 12:22

You cannot beat fire with fire.



Of course you can! Many a forest fire has been halted by the use of fire, oil rig fires are extinguished by using explosives to create a huge fireball that robs the fire of oxygen.


"The people involved in ISIS and other terrorist groups are humans, just like you and me. The education they have received has corrupted the way they perceive things around them. People can change, we just need to work together and show them the way"


Are you the same GT who wanted to completely eradicate Muslims?



 
Juan, that is not what I have said at all.

I said that Islam should be eliminated, not people. The teaching needs to be banned.

When a baby is born into the world it begins to learn as it's life progresses. The children in Syria born to members of ISIS are being taught from the Quran. They are taught to take it seriously and to follow in the life of prophet Muhammad. He lived by the sword, rape, pillaging, removing Jews, Christians and non believers from the world. Beheading? Yes, he also got involved in that. NOTHING that ISIS do now is no different to what happened in the days of Muhammad. The only changes are the weapons at one's disposal.

You can bury your head in the sand all you want. You can keep thinking Islam is peaceful - yet NOWHERE in history have we seen this(and please lets NOT start discussing other religions and stay on topic).

A child is born - it learns. Some grow old and they themselves have influence on the next generation & the cycle will continue etc etc.