Sunderland at DW | Page 15 | Vital Football

Sunderland at DW

The long ball issue is one that seems to worry you, whereas for me it is how it is used that matters.

Last night the way we played made the use of those tactics totally senseless. There was no one running the channels and when the ball was won there was no support player around to pick up the second ball.

On Saturday the difference was a stark contrast. Lang and Wyke both ran the channels and the ball was played long but not centrally, it was also played to them on a lower trajectory allowing both players to use the chest to trap the ball. This seems to be a definite tactic and is working. We also have Keane working alongside both players and mopping up the knock downs then playing the ball back out to the overlapping players.

It is the ball being played long to the channels that is working whereas last night the ball was being lumped up centrally to a player with a definite height disadvantage that failed.

Unfortunately last night we had no one of the skill of Lang and Wyke to control the ball that was being played up and there was no one playing the link up role should we have won the ball. Massey's control was poor and when the ball came to him it was easy for the opposition to dispossess him whereas when the ball is at Keane's feet his control is almost instant and it is difficult for a player to rob him of the ball.

To compound this as you say their press was such that the back four were constantly under pressure and were simply hitting long balls forward to clear the lines.

I'm in total agreement with you, if there is method to the long ball and we can make it work for us i'm absolutely fine with it. I'm not at all bothered about keeping the ball on the deck if going long is more effective.

But more often this season it's worked to our opponents advantage more than it has our benefit, while keeping it down and playing has worked better for us. But as you say at Accrington we played it differently and it worked. I'd be fine if we start doing that but no one was doing anything last night to make that possibly work.
 
Is anyone really getting that worked up or lacking perspective?

People are just critiquing the game on it's own merits, as they have done every other game that had a favourable result this season.

You’re critiquing the game and there’s no problem with that, but some are getting worked up because we lost and supposedly (I didn’t go) didn’t play well.
 
To be fair MiW whilst I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment, as we all do I suspect, I don't think we need to "get a grip" just yet. We are discussing the merits (or lack of) of last nights game, and but for a bit of tit for tat last night in the heat of the immediate aftermath it's all been very civil so far.

Exactly, tit for tat as some are getting worked up. As I said a little perspective from one or two is required.
 
But more often this season it's worked to our opponents advantage more than it has our benefit, .. ...

Eh? I could have sworn we were top of the league. Not much advantage given there!

As TB rightly says, the version we're playing isn't hoof ball, but but a more direct version of keeping possession......as well as making the defence move all over the place.
 
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One thing it proved last night if we get injury’s or suspensions up front we are in trouble. Looks like we have plenty cover at the back but not up front Hopefully stay top end. Before January. Then get one or two in.

Though few individuals did their call for a place in the starting 1st XI any favours last night, (Tilt being the main exception ... and I'm not saying he should start), the biggest issue last night was the teamwork ... or rather, lack of it.

As they've already proved, Humphrys, Jones and even Edwards haven't looked out of place when playing in the 1st XI. Kerr will get there too .....and hopefully Pearce. That only leaves Lloyd, Smith and Massey.
As for the bench, it would have looked stronger with both Aasgard and Bayliss on there, but I reckon we've not too much to worry about.
 
Though few individuals did their call for a place in the starting 1st XI any favours last night, (Tilt being the main exception ... and I'm not saying he should start), the biggest issue last night was the teamwork ... or rather, lack of it.

As they've already proved, Humphrys, Jones and even Edwards haven't looked out of place when playing in the 1st XI. Kerr will get there too .....and hopefully Pearce. That only leaves Lloyd, Smith and Massey.
As for the bench, it would have looked stronger with both Aasgard and Bayliss on there, but I reckon we've not too much to worry about.
When? Everytime I've seen him he's been crap, scored a rebound at Sunderland done nought other than that. Humphrys was more impressive on the right.
 
When? Everytime I've seen him he's been crap, scored a rebound at Sunderland done nought other than that. Humphrys was more impressive on the right.
Fair points ... I was simply trying to convince Walgarth that it wasn't quite as bad as he was making out.
 
Fair points ... I was simply trying to convince Walgarth that it wasn't quite as bad as he was making out.

To be fair, I don't think anyone is thinking about leaping off a cliff after last night, but what it has shown is that those of us who are thinking of titles this season maybe need to downgrade their expectations. Last night has shown we are still a squad that is rebuilding and have some flaws that need addressing. There was nothing to suggest that LR is on the wrong track but there are still some positions within the squad that need strengthening or time to develop.
 
I think sometimes it's easy to say 'they didn't try' when actually there is a bit more to it.

I think Sunderlands high press panicked us into going long all the time which meant that we surrendered possession back every time (they did exactly the same in the league game). Because the ball wasn't sticking the attacking midfield stopped pushing up to pick up non existent knock downs and getting caught behind the ball and Sunderlands movement and energy had us on the back foot.

I think Sunderland's tactics were far better than ours and forced us into playing to our weaknesses and demoralised us - we had absolutely no response. It wouldn't matter who we brought on tonight against Sunderland - if we really wanted to get anywhere we would've needed to change our style of play and we didn't attempt that.

There is no question that a lot of players weren't playing to their best and didn't take responsibility like you'd hope - but our tactics set us up to fail tonight. You need to set the team up to allow players to show their best and those tactics didn't suit anyone in our side and we simply didn't know how to change them.
Sunderland lined up 4-2-3-1 just like we did but we played it in a totally different way. We looked like 4-5-1 while Sunderland looked like 4-3-3.
Us negative, them positive. They liked to play it wide too unlike us with poor Humphreys searching wide and deep for the ball.
 
Eh? I could have sworn we were top of the league. Not much advantage given there!

As TB rightly says, the version we're playing isn't hoof ball, but but a more direct version of keeping possession......as well as making the defence move all over the place.

Being top of the league doesn't mean you've played particularly well, i'd say we are top because we've got better players than most of the opposition that are well organised, good at set pieces and out fought teams. As i said those are attributes not to be sniffed at and not to say we wont develop further but we are specifically talking about comparing ourselves to Sunderland at the moment. I think us and Sunderland are both better than most in this league, they are obviously light years ahead of everyone else we've played so far and I'd say they are currently considerably better than us even if the table says we are equal on points.

Regarding long ball, the issue is that it has most often has resulted in losing possession rather than retaining it and setting the opposition off on counter attacks. We've got a good enough defence to stop the opposition punishing us for that, but with the exception of Accrington in the first half where i think the long ball had some method - it hasn't really done us any favours. If we do what we did against Accy every game; hitting the ball into channels and have runners and aim for chest of players rather than the centre forwards head then there is no issue with them going long, but we've not seen enough of that and none of it last night.
 
Sunderland lined up 4-2-3-1 just like we did but we played it in a totally different way. We looked like 4-5-1 while Sunderland looked like 4-3-3.
Us negative, them positive. They liked to play it wide too unlike us with poor Humphreys searching wide and deep for the ball.

Just goes to show, we all see things differently. I thought we played far too much 4-2-4, with far too big a gap between the 2 and the front 4.

It's just that they were used to playing in their system, whilst we weren't.

Also, I thought we played it wide to Edwards and Jones plenty of times ....... but they didn't do a lot with it.
 
Just goes to show, we all see things differently. I thought we played far too much 4-2-4, with far too big a gap between the 2 and the front 4.

It's just that they were used to playing in their system, whilst we weren't.

Also, I thought we played it wide to Edwards and Jones plenty of times ....... but they didn't do a lot with it.

Again to be honest I thought that Jones cut inside whenever he got the ball, I honestly can't remember him or Edwards for that matter taking on a player on the outside. Their wingers on the other hand took on Pearce and Lloyd at every opportunity and got to the line on a number of occasions. Jones came with a reputation of being a tricky winger with quick feet and the ability to take on and beat players, something we have yet to see from him.
 
...... none of it last night.

Sorry KDZ, but you're doing it again ........commenting on last night's performance, yet somehow attributing the analysis to the 1st XI.

I fully agree with you that it initially wasn't great in the 1st XI, but as TB tightly says, they've adapted, and got much, much better at it. Last night, they weren't very good at it at all.

Any road, let's see what Saturday brings.
 
Again to be honest I thought that Jones cut inside whenever he got the ball, I honestly can't remember him or Edwards for that matter taking on a player on the outside. Their wingers on the other hand took on Pearce and Lloyd at every opportunity and got to the line on a number of occasions. Jones came with a reputation of being a tricky winger with quick feet and the ability to take on and beat players, something we have yet to see from him.
I agree, they did ..... .the point was that the ball was played out wide to them.

Fully agree re Jones ........ so far, he's flattered to deceive, and has made bad decisions (re when to pass/shoot) on a t least a couple of occasions.
 
To be fair, I don't think anyone is thinking about leaping off a cliff after last night, but what it has shown is that those of us who are thinking of titles this season maybe need to downgrade their expectations. Last night has shown we are still a squad that is rebuilding and have some flaws that need addressing. There was nothing to suggest that LR is on the wrong track but there are still some positions within the squad that need strengthening or time to develop.

I dont think we need to downgrade expectations or even need to strengthen further. I think we are probably the second best team in the league and have lots of good attributes, but we played the best team last night and there is a clear gap between us at the moment. I think the reality check isn't so much we're not capable of going up, but after seeing a genuinely good side just realising we've got a lot further to ourselves to get to that level.

I think when we lost to Sunderland in the first game the gap between us was clear, but a couple of months later we were probably all thinking this is a chance to see how far we've come and a measuring stick of how good we currently are (even if it was second string vs second string). With the results since our first game we were probably all believing that we'd give a much better account of ourselves and maybe even had become the better side but unfortunately it doesn't appear like we've really done much catching up to Sunderland yet.

I think Sunderland are towards the peak of what they can do, while we still have a lot of room to improve, so it's just a case of continuing to evolve and see if given the time we can bridge that gap.
 
Sorry KDZ, but you're doing it again ........commenting on last night's performance, yet somehow attributing the analysis to the 1st XI.

I fully agree with you that it initially wasn't great in the 1st XI, but as TB tightly says, they've adapted, and got much, much better at it. Last night, they weren't very good at it at all.

Any road, let's see what Saturday brings.

Obviously the first 11 are better than the second string, but i think a lot of what the first 11 struggle with regarding long ball was reflective in the second string last night. I think the long ball with the exception of Accy in the first half hasn't been very effective at all and I'd say in the first half it was least long ball than we've played in any game this season. The second half Accy changed system and much of our long balls came straight back at us like they have in every other game and put us under pressure. I don't think we've seen enough effective long ball from the first team to say we're making it work yet.

I think on Saturday we'll have a much stronger side than Cheltenham and they wont be anywhere near as good as Sunderland with their pass and move. So we will likely be more effective regardless of how much long ball we play, but for me the less long ball we play the better we've looked, so i'd be hoping for less.
 
.... but we played the best team last night

I think when we lost to Sunderland in the first game the gap between us was clear, but a couple of months later we were probably all thinking this is a chance to see how far we've come and a measuring stick of how good we currently are (even if it was second string vs second string). With the results since our first game we were probably all believing that we'd give a much better account of ourselves and maybe even had become the better side but unfortunately it doesn't appear like we've really done much catching up to Sunderland yet.

.

Sorry to labor the point KDZ, but there you go again ........ you even say yourself that it was 2nd string vs 2nd string, so I'm not sure why you then link last night to "catching up to Sunderland yet".

If we're talking about squads, then I'd agree with you completely. However, it's the transposition of the comparison where I have the issue.

Our 2nd string isn't as good as Sunderland's. However, as our brand new side played them first game up, and we've improved significantly since then, whilst overhauling them in the league, I really don't see why we should consider ourselves inferior to them at this point. Fair enough, if injuries kick in, then the squad comparison may impede us, but at this point, - and yes, I know it's early - we're top of the league. after having played 3 of the other 5 in the top 6.

That'll do for me.
 
You’re critiquing the game and there’s no problem with that, but some are getting worked up because we lost and supposedly (I didn’t go) didn’t play well.


MiW, I did go and although not particularly concerned with the result I was disappointed, as were others, with the performance. I don't mind us losing even with a second string, but when that second string showed less passion and more importantly skill than any side I have seen play for Latics in the last 2 years it is a worry.

I still maintain he could have put out our under 18's side and they would have put up a better show.
 
To be fair, I don't think anyone is thinking about leaping off a cliff after last night, but what it has shown is that those of us who are thinking of titles this season maybe need to downgrade their expectations. Last night has shown we are still a squad that is rebuilding and have some flaws that need addressing. There was nothing to suggest that LR is on the wrong track but there are still some positions within the squad that need strengthening or time to develop.


I also think it's important to remember Leam isn't the finished article either and is a work in progress. He has earned plenty of credit with the fans for last season, but still has a lot to learn. Although we are winning at the moment, I can't say I like his tactics of playing the long ball, it isn't attractive, and I think teams will soon get wise to it.