Sunderland at DW

[Arthur_Itis]

Good job their 1st XI isn't being coached as well as ours then.

Not sure about that one Moonay, we barely laid a glove on them for the majority of the game at the SoL and league tables are meaningless (certainly in September).

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

I get your point KDZ, but to be fair, those 6 new signings were recruited into an established set-up, that had been operating as (supposedly) one of the best in the league for a couple of seasons.

The fact that we're even able to put out a second string (given where we were only a few months ago) is a fantastic achievement as far as I'm concerned. The contest was "even" on the surface, but we both know that in reality, it wasn't.

I've said very clearly that I'd have been more than happy with a boring, consolidatory mid table finish this season. Instead, after a very tough starting fixtures line-up, we're top of the league !!! If the price we have to pay for that is exiting last night's competition, then that's fine by me.

If you look at our starting 11 compared to theirs we had more established L1 players with experience while half their team were young lads in their first season playing the mens game. So while we can say they had a more settled set up, that should've been somewhat offset by the fact we have a lot more know how in our ranks. So i don't think we can make the argument that the team they picked had an inherent advantage over the one we picked - i think before a ball was kicked it was a even match.

But Johnson out thought Richardson tactically and the Sunderland players out performed our players. I don't think this is down to circumstances more we got it wrong and they got it right on the night.

 

[moonay]

Not sure about that one Moonay, we barely laid a glove on them for the majority of the game at the SoL and league tables are meaningless (certainly in September).

That was our first game, with players - and a coaching set-up - who were still getting to know each other ................... and though I take your point re the (lack of) importance of league positions at this point, to have amassed the number of points we have is a fantastic achievement, especially given the opposition in those games.

Forgive me if I'm trying to apply too rosy an outlook, I'm simply trying to balance some of the more negative views being expressed after last night's result and performance.

 

[Oscarbon]

I’m still so bitterly disappointed that we played so pathetically last night.
yes, it was a weaker team, but it’s a team that should be able to hold its own in league one. Nobody, bar Tilt, showed any passion. That bench was ridiculous- reserve them youth players for the papa John games.

I have a funny feeling that if we had started with the young benches we may have got beat 5-0 but with a bit of effort and passion from players who want to prove something.

 

[Arthur_Itis]

If you look at our starting 11 compared to theirs we had more established L1 players with experience while half their team were young lads in their first season playing the mens game. So while we can say they had a more settled set up, that should've been somewhat offset by the fact we have a lot more know how in our ranks. So i don't think we can make the argument that the team they picked had an inherent advantage over the one we picked - i think before a ball was kicked it was a even match.

But Johnson out thought Richardson tactically and the Sunderland players out performed our players. I don't think this is down to circumstances more we got it wrong and they got it right on the night.

The stark difference for me KDZ, which I think you touched on in earlier posts, was that when out of possession Sunderland performed a high energy press that gave us zero time on the ball and when in possession Sunderland's off the ball player movement, their passing triangles and their forward intent was far superior to ours.

 

[moonay]

If you look at our starting 11 compared to theirs we had more established L1 players with experience while half their team were young lads in their first season playing the mens game. So while we can say they had a more settled set up, that should've been somewhat offset by the fact we have a lot more know how in our ranks. So i don't think we can make the argument that the team they picked had an inherent advantage over the one we picked - i think before a ball was kicked it was a even match.

But Johnson out thought Richardson tactically and the Sunderland players out performed our players. I don't think this is down to circumstances more we got it wrong and they got it right on the night.

Players playing together, players being coached by coaches, everyone (seemingly) trying to bed down a way of playing throughout the squad .......... I agree they outplayed (and out-thought) us, but I maintain that their system (and squad philosophy) is way in advance of ours at the moment ... and understandably so.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Sorry, you're miles off with Cousins. He played a few loose passes, probably because he was knackered having been stuck with double the workload off the ball tonight due to the headless chicken as a central midfield partner next to him.


Correct, they proved a point tonight, their depth is far stronger than ours and they'll cope with any injuries to key personnel over the season. Worryingly they also looked far better coached than our lads, fantastic movement off the ball, penetrative forward passes. It was like a training session for them.

I don't think the depth is as much of an issue - but their superior coaching tonight compared to ours was as you say very obvious.

Sunderland have played well this season to get the points they have, while we have got the same number of points without playing well. So you could argue that makes us a good team winning without being at your best or you could argue we're going to eventually come unstuck - i think it's somewhere between the 2 - we have the potential to be a very good team but we will have to improve if we want to go the distance.

I think we simply need to stop thinking long ball aiming for a target mans head is a viable option and do the other things we are better at.

 

[Arthur_Itis]

That was our first game, with players - and a coaching set-up - who were still getting to know each other ................... and though I take your point re the (lack of) importance of league positions at this point, to have amassed the number of points we have is a fantastic achievement, especially given the opposition in those games.

Forgive me if I'm trying to apply too rosy an outlook, I'm simply trying to balance some of the more negative views being expressed after last night's result and performance.

Fair points Moonay and I'm enjoying the debates on this one, nothing like stuff going wrong to generate some posts, it's all been too easy recently for my liking (sarcastic before anyone jumps on this)

 

[moonay]

... their passing triangles and ....

Absolutely spot on.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Players playing together, players being coached by coaches, everyone (seemingly) trying to bed down a way of playing throughout the squad .......... I agree they outplayed (and out-thought) us, but I maintain that their system (and squad philosophy) is way in advance of ours at the moment ... and understandably so.

They are certainly further along for sure, but i think the philosophy they are trying to implement compared to ours was superior too.

 

[moonay]

They are certainly further along for sure, but i think the philosophy they are trying to implement compared to ours was superior too.

And yet, we're top of the league, having faced a very difficult set of opening fixtures.

Also, we've all seen the improvements taking place, and more than one person has said we were soon going to give someone a hammering ........ which we did on Saturday, against an Accy side who'd won all their previous home games.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

The stark difference for me KDZ, which I think you touched on in earlier posts, was that when out of possession Sunderland performed a high energy press that gave us zero time on the ball and when in possession Sunderland's off the ball player movement, their passing triangles and their forward intent was far superior to ours.

Completely agree, what was disappointing was it didn't even look like we were trying to do that and failing to make it work. We seemed to look completely void of any methodology on how to play.

We were forced to go long as much down to our own refusal to show for the ball as much as it was Sunderland's press. But in the first team the tactics have also been deliberate long ball quite a lot even when we are not under pressure. So i'd say even though the second strings issues were more prominent last night than we've seen in the last couple of league games, the lessons from this loss certainly apply to the first team. I think there was a lot to admire in Sunderland's method of play and a lot of things we probably need to bring into our game more prominently.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

And yet, we're top of the league, having faced a very difficult set of opening fixtures.

Also, we've all seen the improvements taking place, and more than one person has said we were soon going to give someone a hammering ........ which we did on Saturday, against an Accy side who'd won all their previous home games.

When you are blessed with a squad as good as ours you will always be in the mix and get results by simply having superior players - like Caldwell did. We also have a very hard working team that have outworked everyone this season rather than out played them.

Last night we came up against a team who's players were an even match in terms of ability and worked hard, so it was down to the coaching, tactics, approach, etc that would dictate the winner and they were head and shoulders above us unfortunately.

We have done well to get the results we have despite not playing that well, but we are going to need to keep improving if we want to go the distance with Sunderland for the top 2. I don't think anyone is saying we can't or wont evolve our play, but i think currently the league table doesn't reflect who the superior side is and we have a lot of work to do to get to their level.

I think this should be a bit of a reality check for us, I think we've understandably all been getting a little bit carried away on the back of a good run of results after our horrible past year. But we came across a really good side and it reminded us we are probably a lot further away from the finished product than maybe we felt after Saturday's good win. But i genuinely don't think that is a bad thing as i've felt it was likely on the cards at some point so it's good that it happened in the cup rather than costing us points. I think seeing what Sunderland did to us last night should give us a lot of motivation and food for thought in what we are doing.

 

[moonay]

When you are blessed with a squad as good as ours you will always be in the mix and get results by simply having superior players - like Caldwell did.

Last night we came up against a team who's players were an even match in terms of ability, so it was down to the coaching, tactics, approach, etc.

We have done well to get the results we have despite not playing that well, but we are going to need to keep improving if we want to go the distance with Sunderland for the top 2. I don't think anyone is saying we can't or wont evolve our play, but i think currently the league table doesn't reflect who the superior side is and we have a lot of work to do to get to their level.

A couple of things KDZ.

You don't seem to be giving the coaching staff or 2nd string players much leeway for the fact that's it's still early days in their relationship.

Also, you appear to be linking the 1st XI and 2nd string players with the same "not a great footballing side" criticism.

The tactics - and performances - of the 1st XI has improved week on week. YEs, they use more long ball than I'd like, but they're getting better at it, and it's mixed in with some lovely stuff on the floor too. Last night's team performance shouldn't be used to pull down the 1st XI's success.

 

[Made in Wigan]

It was touch and go whether we’d have a club 12 months. Yet we got a fabulous new owner, pulled off a miracle to stay up and now sit at the top of the league. Yet folk are getting worked up because we lost in the 4th round of the league with an effective reserve side. Jesus Christ, some folk need to get a grip and find some perspective.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

It was touch and go whether we’d have a club 12 months. Yet we got a fabulous new owner, pulled off a miracle to stay up and now sit at the top of the league. Yet folk are getting worked up because we lost in the 4th round of the league with an effective reserve side. Jesus Christ, some folk need to get a grip and find some perspective.

Is anyone really getting that worked up or lacking perspective?

People are just critiquing the game on it's own merits, as they have done every other game that had a favourable result this season.

 

[TRUE BELIEVER]

Completely agree, what was disappointing was it didn't even look like we were trying to do that and failing to make it work. We seemed to look completely void of any methodology on how to play.

We were forced to go long as much down to our own refusal to show for the ball as much as it was Sunderland's press. But in the first team the tactics have also been deliberate long ball quite a lot even when we are not under pressure. So i'd say even though the second strings issues were more prominent last night than we've seen in the last couple of league games, the lessons from this loss certainly apply to the first team. I think there was a lot to admire in Sunderland's method of play and a lot of things we probably need to bring into our game more prominently.

The long ball issue is one that seems to worry you, whereas for me it is how it is used that matters.

Last night the way we played made the use of those tactics totally senseless. There was no one running the channels and when the ball was won there was no support player around to pick up the second ball.

On Saturday the difference was a stark contrast. Lang and Wyke both ran the channels and the ball was played long but not centrally, it was also played to them on a lower trajectory allowing both players to use the chest to trap the ball. This seems to be a definite tactic and is working. We also have Keane working alongside both players and mopping up the knock downs then playing the ball back out to the overlapping players.

It is the ball being played long to the channels that is working whereas last night the ball was being lumped up centrally to a player with a definite height disadvantage that failed.

Unfortunately last night we had no one of the skill of Lang and Wyke to control the ball that was being played up and there was no one playing the link up role should we have won the ball. Massey's control was poor and when the ball came to him it was easy for the opposition to dispossess him whereas when the ball is at Keane's feet his control is almost instant and it is difficult for a player to rob him of the ball.

To compound this as you say their press was such that the back four were constantly under pressure and were simply hitting long balls forward to clear the lines.

 

[moonay]

Is anyone really getting that worked up or lacking perspective?

People are just critiquing the game on it's own merits, as they have done every other game that had a favourable result this season.

They were last night .......admittedly, you're not.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

A couple of things KDZ.

You don't seem to be giving the coaching staff or 2nd string players much leeway for the fact that's it's still early days in their relationship.

Also, you appear to be linking the 1st XI and 2nd string players with the same "not a great footballing side" criticism.

The tactics - and performances - of the 1st XI has improved week on week. YEs, they use more long ball than I'd like, but they're getting better at it, and it's mixed in with some lovely stuff on the floor too. Last night's team performance shouldn't be used to pull down the 1st XI's success.

The 1st team have got good results that they have rightly been given due credit for, they have had lots of attributes, but they haven't been a great footballing side this season so far. I've said myself about how we are gradually improving, but the flaws our first team are shared by the second string but more prominent - so i think there are still lessons to be learned that are applicable to the first team.

I think early days, new players, etc are of course factor but i think that Sunderland's method was the biggest difference maker. If Johnson and Richardson effectively swops tactics their side would've also struggled to get anywhere and we'd have had a much better night.

I think you generally the biggest improvements and evolutions come from defeats and disappointments and last night will hopefully be a blessing in disguise for us.

 

[Arthur_Itis]

It was touch and go whether we’d have a club 12 months. Yet we got a fabulous new owner, pulled off a miracle to stay up and now sit at the top of the league. Yet folk are getting worked up because we lost in the 4th round of the league with an effective reserve side. Jesus Christ, some folk need to get a grip and find some perspective.

To be fair MiW whilst I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment, as we all do I suspect, I don't think we need to "get a grip" just yet. We are discussing the merits (or lack of) of last nights game, and but for a bit of tit for tat last night in the heat of the immediate aftermath it's all been very civil so far.