Stoke v Forest, pushing it uphill.

[Southern red]

Our main problem is we lose the middle of the pitch, which then dictates how we play.
We have too many headless chickens like Christie/ameobi/figs

I don’t mind Cafu but we need pace/drive with him so maybe Brennan?

grabban looks Mardy and never looks a captain. We need someone to fire the team up and shout orders on match day

 

[Lienking]

WHY Is GRABBAN CAPTAIN ???? Some fooker must know

Apparently CH made the players stand in a circle, put the armband in the middle, then said grabban armband .......

 

[flipleflem]

I agree with all Mao says about confidence, it is what turns a good player into a bad one and visa versa. Also makes it really difficult for a new manager to come in and turn things around without the benefit of time.
I really believe that CH is the man that will turn this club round if he is given a couple of years. We just need to get behind him and realise that although we all think that we could pick a better team, the reality is that we couldn't.

 

[mao tse tung]

Again agree with nearly everything, it's just your refusal to acknowledge that organisations are inherently complex and interconnected that bugs me. It's never simply down to the players, or coaching staff or hierarchy.

I am fully aware of how complex businesses can be and how the hierarchies and cross functional areas interconnect; I just do not see how any perceived disfunction behind the scenes is impacting on the first team.

I do not see any of the tell tale signs that players are not playing for the team or the manager; there is plenty of effort and desire, no one is throwing the towel in, the fact that we keep going behind and fighting back is testimony to that.

And its not like we have a huge bomb squad around distracting the players; we have just two players at the moment, Clough and Hefele, and Hefele is conducting himself like the model professional by all accounts.

Hughton has Dawson on hand as his eyes and ears around the players, so I think we can dispel a player mutiny as being a contributory factor.

There are issues to overcome, but they are the same issues all Clubs face.

We have a good few new faces and no facilities for any kind of team bonding, and some players are living apart from their families.

They might be aspects which you do not bother about when doing well, but they must be vital when you are in our position, because it certainly does you no good when you are taking reversals and poor performances home with you.

Things have obviously gone off which Danny Taylor does not like; if those things are what I think they are, then fair play to Danny for speaking up - Danny is a fantastic journalist who is privileged to have a platform for airing his views.

He uses that platform sparingly and to great effect; personally, I think we are very lucky to have someone of his gravitas speaking out on our behalf.

Do I think that Danny's Tweets have had an adverse effect on team moral or have been counterproductive in any way?

No

The top and bottom of it is that the players will not give a fuck about the directors falling out, just like shop floor workers do not give a fuck about management fall outs at their place of work.

The way I see it, all of the problems are on the pitch, and that is exactly where they will be put right.

 

[forestonourwayback]

Having read all of the posts, I have to say I saw the match a bit different. I thought, overall, we played quite well. In the first half Stoke started the better and we gave away a stupid goal again, evidence again of our soft underbelly, but we rallied after that concession. There was little to separate the sides, other than that aberration.

In the second half we played well and really controlled the game. We should have won. Cafu had a golden chance to do that but failed miserably. I have no problem with Cafu as a defensive midfielder, he's not bad, but to play him as a no 10 is ridiculous. We shouldn't have Sow, Yates and Cafu in the same midfield, as that is far too defensive. But our passing was good. How many times have we been able to say that.

We do lack a real leader, I agree with ORF on that. Grabban is not a captain. Worrall is more of a captain. But this is something we must address. It's a shame that January will be as much about correcting awful recruitment decisions as it will about bringing in better players. Until we get the ethos and culture right, and improve recruitment, we are going to struggle. I'd like us to continue to be a counter attacking team, but one that has a culture of passing the ball superbly, on the break. That's my ideal. Remind you of any of our past teams???

Despite all of our mistakes, we still have a squad that is capable of challenging the top 6 (maybe not this season!), I expect us to steadily climb the table to safety in the New Year.

To summarise, a good result.

 

[radfordinlondon]

Well that's the million dollar question, and we can only go on assumptions at the moment.

To start with there was a hangover from last season - we got within touching distance of the play offs and then the wheels came off.

Why?

To achieve anything you need a winning mentality, a mentality we just did not have.

When you go through the last day trauma some of those players went through, it must shatter self belief; once that goes it takes some getting back.

We had very little experience or leadership in the side which imploded; we attempted to rectify that in the transfer market but players like Colback, who has not replicated his previous Club form, and Arter, who has been absolutely shocking, and Freeman, who has been injured, have not provided that leadership.

McKenna, who looks like serious leadership material, has also been injured.

Which brings us on to injuries; we have suffered an unprecedented run of injuries, even by our standards, all to key players.

Worrall, McKenna, Grabban and Freeman would be a huge loss for any side.

We bring in a lot of players most of whom have not clicked; there was a very good interview with Joe Lolley in the Athletic on why he thinks that has been the case.

And then there is confidence; there is confidence as a group and confidence relating to the individual.

You can down play confidence all you like but it is a huge contributory factor; instinctive actions give way to second thoughts, the natural becomes mechanical and its nothing that can be put right with the flick of a switch.

There are signs that the players are starting to listen to the managers instructions though, particularly in the second half last night.

If that continues over the next few games we could be in business; alternatively it could be another flase dawn.

Wanted to pick up on the signs. Was an odd game to reflect cos most of it couldnt be seen 2nd half. There did seem to be an improvement yesterday. It wasnt pretty but did seem like everyone was a doing a bit more work. Fair play for the reaction we got onc they scored. We look laboured for sure but yes seeing a rare joe lolly in the box and even cafu- nice to moan about cm missing opportunities rather than moaning there was no one there to have a go. Just seemed that the team found a bit of backbone yesterday. Not much, but unless i am delusional, some definite signs of progress. Unbeaten in 4 is a good way to build confidence.

Obviously we need wins at this point but a point away at 7th placed team will do, especially when there were plenty of potential wrist slashers last night.

 

[Apollyon]

By the way chap how's Vic chap?

Just how is that congested chest of yours chap? Still need a good rubbing?

 

[Calvin Plummer]

I am fully aware of how complex businesses can be and how the hierarchies and cross functional areas interconnect; I just do not see how any perceived disfunction behind the scenes is impacting on the first team.

I do not see any of the tell tale signs that players are not playing for the team or the manager; there is plenty of effort and desire, no one is throwing the towel in, the fact that we keep going behind and fighting back is testimony to that.

And its not like we have a huge bomb squad around distracting the players; we have just two players at the moment, Clough and Hefele, and Hefele is conducting himself like the model professional by all accounts.

Hughton has Dawson on hand as his eyes and ears around the players, so I think we can dispel a player mutiny as being a contributory factor.

There are issues to overcome, but they are the same issues all Clubs face.

We have a good few new faces and no facilities for any kind of team bonding, and some players are living apart from their families.

They might be aspects which you do not bother about when doing well, but they must be vital when you are in our position, because it certainly does you no good when you are taking reversals and poor performances home with you.

Things have obviously gone off which Danny Taylor does not like; if those things are what I think they are, then fair play to Danny for speaking up - Danny is a fantastic journalist who is privileged to have a platform for airing his views.

He uses that platform sparingly and to great effect; personally, I think we are very lucky to have someone of his gravitas speaking out on our behalf.

Do I think that Danny's Tweets have had an adverse effect on team moral or have been counterproductive in any way?

No

The top and bottom of it is that the players will not give a fuck about the directors falling out, just like shop floor workers do not give a fuck about management fall outs at their place of work.

The way I see it, all of the problems are on the pitch, and that is exactly where they will be put right.

I mean you're just wrong, no other way of saying it. Let's make this simple, imagine two identical businesses. One has a culture of empowerment where employees are encouraged to take ownership of their work. The other has a culture of blame and fear. You think that has 0 impact on the workers on the floor? Lol ok.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

So it's just a fluke Leeds or Brentford play the way they do?

 

[mao tse tung]

I mean you're just wrong, no other way of saying it. Let's make this simple, imagine two identical businesses. One has a culture of empowerment where employees are encouraged to take ownership of their work. The other has a culture of blame and fear. You think that has 0 impact on the workers on the floor? Lol ok.

Footballers taking ownership of their work???

Are you mad?

Do you seriously think that there is a culture of blame and fear?

Where is the evidence for this?

I tell you what; have a go at explaining what you think is wrong without resorting to the usual platitudes.

 

[mao tse tung]

So it's just a fluke Leeds or Brentford play the way they do?

I'm not sure how many time you watched Brentford play last season but they could be as dour and defensive as any team in the league, and they still are from the few times I have seen them play this season.

The big difference for them was they had three forwards who were talented, extremely hard working and knew where the net was.

Its funny you should talk about ethos and culture and then mention Leeds, managed by one of the last few dictators left in the game.

Bielsa has been a successful manager but he has encountered just as much failure due to his methods.

It is also noticeable that both Clubs have a higher churn of playing staff than we do, although we are not allowed to mention that, are we?

 

[Apollyon]

I hate to see you two like this

 

[Ingy]

I hate to see you two like this

How is The Edge these days chap?

 

[Apollyon]

Bert said he was a bit down when he last saw him. He said he was moaning about Sunday, bloody Sunday. He kept saying it over and over again.

 

[Ingy]

Bert said he was a bit down when he last saw him. He said he was moaning about Sunday, bloody Sunday. He kept saying it over and over again.

Funnily enough chap when he is on a high he suffers from vertigo chap!

 

[JC21]

I hate to see you two like this

I thought they were the same person??????

 

[Calvin Plummer]

I'm not sure how many time you watched Brentford play last season but they could be as dour and defensive as any team in the league, and they still are from the few times I have seen them play this season.

The big difference for them was they had three forwards who were talented, extremely hard working and knew where the net was.

Its funny you should talk about ethos and culture and then mention Leeds, managed by one of the last few dictators left in the game.

Bielsa has been a successful manager but he has encountered just as much failure due to his methods.

It is also noticeable that both Clubs have a higher churn of playing staff than we do, although we are not allowed to mention that, are we?

Feel free to post actual numbers to back up your assertion, for Brentford you can strip out signings for their development squad.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

Footballers taking ownership of their work???

Are you mad?

Do you seriously think that there is a culture of blame and fear?

Where is the evidence for this?

I tell you what; have a go at explaining what you think is wrong without resorting to the usual platitudes.

DT has posted evidence.

You didn't actually answer my question, does culture impact shopfloor workers, you claimed it doesn't...

Yes footballers can take responsibility, they can be given freedom to express themselves, to look after the ball etc. They can do that without fearing blame if a mistake happens. You should watch the difference in how Dutch and Belgian kids are coached compared to ours.

 

[mao tse tung]

Feel free to post actual numbers to back up your assertion, for Brentford you can strip out signings for their development squad.

I have already been through that exercise; they both had higher numbers than we did.

 

[mao tse tung]

DT has posted evidence.

You didn't actually answer my question, does culture impact shopfloor workers, you claimed it doesn't...

Yes footballers can take responsibility, they can be given freedom to express themselves, to look after the ball etc. They can do that without fearing blame if a mistake happens. You should watch the difference in how Dutch and Belgian kids are coached compared to ours.

DT did not post evidence; he alluded to the union being called in because some members of the bomb squad had been made to train with the under age teams, a practice that is common up and down the leagues.

The bomb squad, which is now a grand total of two, still train with the under age teams; the big difference is one of those players accepts he has no future at the Club, but rather than sulk he is getting stuck in to helping the kids develop.

You see, some players do have a good attitude.

Danny also made a remark about Riberio which turned out to be incorrect.

There is no blame culture at the Club (and who's fault is that?) it there was, Danny would have had more information from pissed off players than he would know what to do with.

As for the difference between how Dutch and Belgian kids are trained compared to ours; I'm not so sure that gap is still so big anymore, there certainly appears to be a swathe of hugely talented kids coming through, particularly onto the England scene, and some are even going abroad to play.

There is also a lot of talent coming through our Academy and that will only get better once we have Cat 1.

You should pay the Under 23's a visit because once you have witnessed how they are run and the talent on display I am certain you will change your mind on that point.

I did not claim that culture does not impact on shop floor workers; I said they were completely detached from the politics that surround the senior management and the Directors - do you seriously think they give a fuck when a manager or director gets fired or promoted?

And Footballers are no different; if you think that disagreements between our CEO and two board members have put all of the players on a massive downer, well, its just not true.

Its a though you are willing things to go wrong just so that you can point the blame at EM; that would not be good because it will only bring more disappointment.