Standing - Sit Down! | Vital Football

Standing - Sit Down!

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
#1
A growing problem for Clubs is that fans seem to have got the opinion that they can stand up because no one is forcing them to sit down.

What fans don't realise, is that the clubs are now getting into quite big trouble, which will lead to fines and potentially having a % of the tickets they can sell suspended i.e. the authories might say 10% have to be withheld.

Our club, so I'm told, has been targetted as the worst offender. I find it hard to believe, because of the constant pictures of the fans all standing at Anfield, however, this could well come to bite us and our club.

Do you stand? Do you think you have the right to stand? What would make you realise you don't and for you to sit down?

And if you do stand, do you realise how difficult you make the match experience for those not as fit, the older and some of the differently abled - not always fully disabled - ? It makes for a rotten match experience.

I know from my experience, I sat on the front row for a reason, I can't always keep getting up and down and can't always stand for the duration, which has always made away games painful affairs for me.

It is actually starting to ruin more and more fans experiences, the Club are getting more and more complaints.

I think this is a watch this space situation, as the standing won't be allowed to continue without hefty fines, at the very least for the Club.

"They can afford it." Might be the answer. Can they? No, they are a commercial enterprise, we want them to put the money in to make us top four and challenging again. We have a part to play.

"Those who are differently abled can go sit elsewhere or go in the disabled section." Can they? Where? Loads in the Holte End stand throughout the game. The North Stand Lower is pretty much all standing these days. So where do you suggest, in a stadium pretty much sold out with 30 000 season ticket holders and 20 000 members plus waiting lists? And why should people with issues have to move when the people with the problem are actually those standing?

"We should be allowed to stand." Totally different argument, I agree, it was never about standing, it was about putting us all in cages. Fact remains though, unless/until the law changes, we aren't allowed.

Thoughts?
 

VillaTomB38

Vital 1st Team Regular
#2
Everyone around me in L8 stands, I couldn’t sit down even if I wanted to and good luck to anyone coming to force us to sit down because it just wouldn’t happen. I chose my particular ‘seat’/block because it’s cheap and I knew everyone stood and I guess everyone in that block would tell you the same thing, I don’t want to sit down as I can stay at home and watch it on tv doing that.

Away games are different, that’s where the points raised are more valid. There are a mix of fans from all over Villa Park but because everyone stands they (Who want to sit) have to too which isn’t fair. This leads nicely on to my next point...

There is one very simple solution to this ‘problem’ and one that is proven to work, change the legislation and allow us to stand legally with the rail seating. I’d love for some rails to lean when my back aches (Was great at Spurs away) and it’s much safer than standing in a seated area. In Germany, away ends are a mix of seating and standing (Think Brentford) so all could be catered for. But the government is really dragging their heels with it so for now the ‘problem’ will continue to exist.
 
#3
The only time I sit down is before the game . I can't remember anyone home or away asking us to sit down. I am surprised clubs are getting fined tbh as I see very few if any fans sitting down ,and in my view trying to enforce sitting is unpoliceable. Sounds like an easy way for the authorities to rake in some cash.
 

VillaTomB38

Vital 1st Team Regular
#4
The only time I sit down is before the game . I can't remember anyone home or away asking us to sit down. I am surprised clubs are getting fined tbh as I see very few if any fans sitting down ,and in my view trying to enforce sitting is unpoliceable. Sounds like an easy way for the authorities to rake in some cash.
Ive never been told to sit down away but I can imagine there’s many who would like to sit and those people aren’t going to tell you to sit because there’s so many others standing too so they have no choice but to stand. If someone does tell you to sit down you can’t because the person in front is standing and so on, it just won’t happen.
 
#5
Ive never been told to sit down away but I can imagine there’s many who would like to sit and those people aren’t going to tell you to sit because there’s so many others standing too so they have no choice but to stand. If someone does tell you to sit down you can’t because the person in front is standing and so on, it just won’t happen.
Yes . I think it is accepted that if you go to away games then you have to stand. The only time I have seen anyone complain about fellow fans standing up is at Wembley when we played Arsenal.
 

tmg513

Vital Squad Member
#6
I'm all in favour of standing at home games for those who want it, as long as their choice doesn't interfere with those who prefer to sit for whatever reason. It's OK where I am at the front (3rd row) of the Upper Holte, everyone stays seated. It was nostalgic the stand behind a rail at Forest Green yesterday, I'd forgotten how bloody cold your feet get standing on concrete!

At my age and the age of my mates who go to away games we're more interested in safe seating than safe standing so we look for seats either at the front of top tiers or above stairwells so our view can't be blocked. If we can't get those then I just accept that away fans want to stand and I'm in the minority.
 

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
#7
Everyone around me in L8 stands, I couldn’t sit down even if I wanted to and good luck to anyone coming to force us to sit down because it just wouldn’t happen. I chose my particular ‘seat’/block because it’s cheap and I knew everyone stood and I guess everyone in that block would tell you the same thing, I don’t want to sit down as I can stay at home and watch it on tv doing that.

Legislation aside, as that is a bit of a different argument / debate we've all had before. I say in the article to this out this evening, that the problem was never standing, it was being put in cages. But at the moment, it is what it is, this is the law. I don't like driving at 30mph but can't choose otherwise without the sanctions of fines/losing my license.

Why is it fair that the club will end up being fined for 'us' flouting the rules?

The thing is, from what I've had communicated to me, 'we' as fans seem to think there is a choice and we choose to stand. There isn't a choice. Why is it ok to say 'I don't want to sit down' when we all know the stadium is all seater? And why would you feel it is comparible to being at home if you sit down? I don't get that argument at all.

All my questions in this thread are out of interest to the debate, not arguing the points btw, not having a go!

I did say at the FCG that I think things were left too long to do much about it now, short of extreme actions and let's be honest, they can't get enough stewards into the ground to force people to sit and I can't see hundreds of police being deployed to do it. The fact a blind eye was given for so long at away games where pretty much everyone stands, is now / has now filtered into home stands.

The fact remains many are having their match experience completely ruined to the point some are being forced not to attend. So those insisting on standing (because they can) are surely being totally selfish to the needs of other fellow fans?

(Questions open to everyone , not just Tom!)
 

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
#8
The only time I sit down is before the game . I can't remember anyone home or away asking us to sit down. I am surprised clubs are getting fined tbh as I see very few if any fans sitting down ,and in my view trying to enforce sitting is unpoliceable. Sounds like an easy way for the authorities to rake in some cash.
It is the law. A hot potato passed from one authority to another. If anything happened, people within the authorities or people at the club could become personally responsible and I believe harsh legal action could be directed towards them, including if a death occurred, I would imagine, manslaughter.

Fans are asked to sit down, but only via the tannoy. Stewards used to try, used to being the operative word.

Fellow fans wouldn't dare ask people to sit down, you know how some react to that sort of thing, spitting and snarling their bile and not giving a toss if they are ruining someone elses match, because most in society now only gives a damn about themselves and sod everyone else.

Disabled, too old, infirm to stand? Well, tough luck, feck off.

Hmmm.
 

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
#9
Yes . I think it is accepted that if you go to away games then you have to stand. The only time I have seen anyone complain about fellow fans standing up is at Wembley when we played Arsenal.
Maybe what they should do is start to fine people to sort it. I can't think of many laws I am allowed to flout, as said earlier in the thread, I don't like driving at 30mph, I think I should be able to do twice that without recourse. The law thinks otherwise!!!!!!!!!!!

It might be accepted, because there is nothing fellow fans can do about it. Can you imagine for a good % of people, being forced NOT to be able to go to games because of the actions of others though sirdennis?

Not nice is it?
 

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
#10
I'm all in favour of standing at home games for those who want it, as long as their choice doesn't interfere with those who prefer to sit for whatever reason. It's OK where I am at the front (3rd row) of the Upper Holte, everyone stays seated. It was nostalgic the stand behind a rail at Forest Green yesterday, I'd forgotten how bloody cold your feet get standing on concrete!

At my age and the age of my mates who go to away games we're more interested in safe seating than safe standing so we look for seats either at the front of top tiers or above stairwells so our view can't be blocked. If we can't get those then I just accept that away fans want to stand and I'm in the minority.
I would be fascinated to know just how much of a minority it truly is? I have no clue. Is it 30% who want to sit? 40% who wouldn't mind? Maybe 60% wouldn't feel at all peed off if they had to sit, just a soft 'not that bothered' etc etc.

The legislation changing could sort this, but we've waited a hell of a long time for that and it still isn't being seriously looked at / done.

Paul Faulkner years ago thought he'd made progress and we'd get some either in the North Stand Lower or the corner of the Holte End as standing, but again, authorities didn't budge.

It's not for us fans to be in favour, it is for us, surely, to have to do what the law dictates so the club don't lose a % of seats they can sell (that is finance they can't afford to lose, when we ALL want them to be spending hundreds of millions buying us success) or having heavy fines.
 
#11
Maybe what they should do is start to fine people to sort it. I can't think of many laws I am allowed to flout, as said earlier in the thread, I don't like driving at 30mph, I think I should be able to do twice that without recourse. The law thinks otherwise!!!!!!!!!!!

It might be accepted, because there is nothing fellow fans can do about it. Can you imagine for a good % of people, being forced NOT to be able to go to games because of the actions of others though sirdennis?

Not nice is it?
No it isn't. Not saying it is ok , just the way it is at the moment. Not sure what the answer is though , apart from safe standing areas.
 

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
#12
Interesting debate btw folks, hope more join in and give their opinions and I might keep playing the flipside of the argument.

I can from my own experience say just how hard it has for me to be at games since my brain op in 94. I didn't sit on the front row, where I got continually soaked, which then would leave me (anyone there) freezing cold in winter, just for the fun of it. It was because i couldn't keep standing up, (and actually further to that, where I was, it wasn't a long row so I didn't have to keep getting up and down to let people get in and out for their drinks/loo etc, you know what some are like, they don't seem to watch much of the game, they are always walking in and out!)

And from personal experience, the disabled facilities were really for those in wheelchairs and as I most often 'look alright' it is difficult sitting in disabled areas. And then you can't be sitting with friends or family. That's not pleasant, especially when some of the ignorant will push you, or have a go because you don't look disabled, then you aren't (that includes badly trained/untrained stewards)

But hey, obviously if everyone else is ok, it doesn't matter about the old guys, or people who are infirm, or the young who can't see over the others standing eh? Sod them (sic).
 

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
#13
No it isn't. Not saying it is ok , just the way it is at the moment. Not sure what the answer is though , apart from safe standing areas.
It is a tough one, I think they've let it drift in and to then change the habits of fans is difficult.

It would take drastic action perhaps, something they won't want to do, so authorities will fine the clubs instead, which doesn't seem fair, when it isn't the club standing, it is the paying customers.
 
#14
It is a tough one, I think they've let it drift in and to then change the habits of fans is difficult.

It would take drastic action perhaps, something they won't want to do, so authorities will fine the clubs instead, which doesn't seem fair, when it isn't the club standing, it is the paying customers.
Yup. Didn't realise the clubs were getting fined. They used to have an announcement before the game about not standing , but that doesn't happen any more.
Shrewsbury have safe standing so I am surprised no other clubs have followed suit.
 

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
#15
I remember years back, Man City fans, in the North Stand Lower (so as said,a good few years back!) heard the announcement to sit down, most were, but by the end of the announcement the whole lot had stood up!!!!!!!

Crowds don't like to be told what to do, that is the problem, and most follow as opposed to leading, so if one stands, all stand.
 

Melon Donkey

Vital Champions League
#16
I'm in L6. 10 or so rows from the back.
Where I sit its quite interesting in that there is not standing all game , game after game . It's only seemingly the 'big games' where there is whole game standing. For example blues, baggies play off semi last season was standing all game. So the exception rather than the rule.

I suppose I'm a bit traditional in that if you go in a stand behind a goal then you have to accept the standing element. But then I'm one of those who remember standing at games. There will be fans who won't know this concept.

When I do venture to the trinity rd or Witton lane I don't see that standing is a problem there?. People there in my recent experiences rarely sing let alone stand unless it's a goal or something significant happening. So I guess we are talking Holte and North lower here. I have accepted that when the day comes that I can't stand for long periods or can't get up or down easily I will relocate to areas that are not affected.

In relation the legal aspect. Has this ever been explained properly to fans in general. Not in my recollection. No way is it enforceable, not enough resources to cope from police or the club. Love to see who they make an example of first. How would they pick and choose . Every weekend I could pick out examples at clubs. As if fans aren't pissed on enough without this aswell. Does it need to be enforced?. For safety? . Not really because as said the all seater stadia was a direct result of too many in a confined space at Hillsborough. That cannot happen now because of all seater. So is the authorities view that it is unsafe because people stand where there are seats and that then becomes the hazard. Where does it stop then?. Are we going to not be able to stand and jump about when we score aswell . Blimey that and VAR ruining that key moment in why we all go to games. Yuk. Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit.

I understand the problem this causes for some but maybe I am being naive but kind of thought that fans at villa choose to sit where they do taking into account the standing/sitting aspects of that location.

Whatever happens the club cannot just go 'right no one stands'. There has to be more information. There has to be going back to the authorities over this if it's becoming an issue and some clarity because rightly or wrongly its gone too far and been allowed to go too far just to suddenly start cracking a draconian whip .
 
#17
Remember my first Villa Park match. I was about 10. We'd journeyed down from North Wales (big trek in those days). Dad had bought tickets for seats, don't know which stand. Every time it looked as though we had a chance of scoring the whole stand stood up, so never saw those moments. Peed off!

I suspect a lot of people for one reason or another would prefer to sit. Certainly if I went these days I wouldn't have an option; standing is out. Something needs sorting. I agree, given the rules and the affect on others, people should sit. Don't know how you get them to do that.
 
#18
When I had my ST on the back row of the Trinity Middle, we stood up all game (just hospitality boxes behind) and the stewards didn't give a toss. But when I moved to the Holte, they were all over it like a rash and I saw people ejected for not sitting.

At the end of the day, it is an all-seater stadium and the norm should be to sit down. Apart from moments when we're on the attack, or have a corner or whatever, when it's almost impossible to stay seated!

It's definitely more difficult to remain seated at the ends (ie Holte and North Stand) as for one thing, you can't see what's going on at the other end if you're lower down.

I just hope they get on and introduce the safe standing areas like they have at Celtic, and maybe make the entire Holte Lower and North Lower safe standing?
 

wittonite

Vital 1st Team Regular
#19
First thing to say is that I accept everything you say JF, from the legal and moral standpoint. But I am with B38 on this one, we as a club should challenge an arcaic law that was brought in for different times.
We should have standing areas in the ground. I am not a season ticket holder but nearly always manage to get a single ticket in K4 or K5 and always in the back ten rows or so. I do this deliberately because eveyone up there stands up.
I am 68 and fortunatly pretty fit managing to walk 2-3 miles most days with the dog, and when this changes for whatever reason I will sit in another part of Villa Park.
I am of the opinion that all of those that congregate at the back of the Holte are fully aware that everyone up there stands and people simply dont purchase a seat up there if they want to actually sit in it.
For me its part of the matchday experience, being amongst like minded people.
I dont want to sit amongst the prawn sandwich brigade, no offence to anyone intended, I just love the atmosphere created in that section of the ground.
We have already had VAR imposed on us and if this was policed and we were forced to sit down its another little bit of the day out gone and the whole thing become pedestrian, soulless and boring.
Sorry about the rant, I feel passionate about this.
 

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
#20
Yes,the legal challenge, changing rules, I agree with, as said. BUT until then, the law is the law and I believe it is becoming a problem because it is in more and more places, around the ground. People are finding they can't move because the ground is selling out plus, they are used to where they sit and it never used to be a problem for them before.

I would agree if you go to the back of the Holte, it is pretty known that is standing, whether it should be or not, so then you would be at fault really.

North Stand lower never used to be all standing though, it apparently is now.