Squad size, Evans has a bit to do before the window shuts | Page 2 | Vital Football

Squad size, Evans has a bit to do before the window shuts

Found it a bit strange that SE would rather have 6 subs than include the likes of BG or Oldaker as a sub. Surely you utilise the players you have at your disposal until you get the players in you want.

I find it a bit frustrating that SE seems to want to disregard players (especially youngsters) and fuck em off, rather than work with them and try and improve them as players. All these youngsters, with help, good coaching, encouragement and guidance to where they need to improve could be the next BD. That won't happen if you just fuck em off out the door.
DJ has certainly had some of that but as Trevor implies in the posting above they have to get rid of ‘em first and stop paying them before they can get anyone else in and begin paying them. He has interest from another club, maybe he’ll be on less money,who knows ? Sometimes clubs pay them a sum to make a difference to sweeten the departure in that case.
We can all speculate but none of us know the financials in individual situations.
 
Evans seems to be doing something we’ve quite frankly never seen before. He is building almost entirely his own squad in a single transfer window with very few players still here from last year. So many times we’ve made excuses for managers coming in – “it’s not his squad, these aren’t his players”, even after a transfer window takes place they usually can only change a few players.

One thing we can be certain of is that SE cannot claim the players he’s signed are not what he wanted! He’s had an almost entirely clean slate. Certainly more so than any other manager’s we’ve had in my memory.

What I find interesting is how he’s doing this. We have always in the past had people come on these forums “we need to get rid of X Y and Z”, and we’ve replied “well you can’t just get rid of players”. It seems SE can, and has – which has proven me wrong really. To do this it seems he’s being quite brutal to players he wants to get rid of and convincing them to move on. How he’s doing this when so many other managers have failed is anyone’s guess, but I’d imagine he’s being totally honest with them or even actually over exaggerating and telling them that their career will not progress while at GFC. Any player with some talent will look at this and agree it’s not a place they want to be and look for a move. Not playing them and leaving the bench half empty is clearly just more of his tactic to completely freeze the players in question out and convince them they need to leave. DJ oldaker today for example, maybe it hit home for him last night that SE was ‘serious’ about not playing him.

Although of course what we don’t know is how much this is costing GFC. A lot of these movements have been mutually terminated contracts. I am sure that in some instances the player will have just been happy to rip up the contract to move on and can cover their wages at the new club they sign with. But in other circumstances, when the player isn’t able to get as high a contract as at GFC, I guess we’ll be making up part of the difference in wage that the player may be getting at their new club as part of that mutual termination. That was clearly what happened with Rees who signed for Bromley the same day we announced the MT contract IMO. I guess SE will make a decision on each one as to whether it’s a good deal for him/the club.

The Oldaker decision surprised me a bit as I had hoped SE might have been able to get more out of him where other managers had failed (yet the players regularly rated him as one of the most talented), but I can understand that yet another manager doesn’t rate him. We just cannot afford to have passengers or hopefuls. Our budget isn’t that big. Evans has clearly decided the potential chance of him turning it around and making it just isn’t worth the outlay, and the money can be spent better elsewhere. I have no issue with that – I’ve always understood we need to take a cost vs benefit approach to all decisions, and accept we don’t have the budgets some clubs to.

If the transfer window closes and we’ve not made any more signings then I’d be concerned. We have a small squad. Last night showed they can potentially be a strong squad and can compete well in this league, but we were light on the bench, and come the middle of the season will be even lighter when we have more injuries and suspensions etc. I think most will agree the squad is not big enough as it currently stands.

But I am not panicking about our squad size yet though. We have another 10 days of the transfer window. As long as we have a full squad by the time the transfer window shuts I am happy. The bulk of our squad was assembled fairly quickly and before pre-season, so it’s not a case of loads of players coming in late without a pre-season. It’s just a few that will be coming in late to compliment what is already a reasonable squad.

I’d guess SE is waiting to get rid of a few more players so he can spend that additional budget on the players he brings in/better options than we could afford without getting rid of them.

I also suspect that if there are players he wants to get rid of but don’t leave, then unless he’s really and truly fallen out with the player once the transfer window slams shut he will start to involve them in squads more, and would probably not leave the bench empty after the transfer window shuts. But he can’t do this until the transfer window shuts, as he’s trying to get them to leave. Of course all of this is speculation. Only the players and those in the know will know what SE’s been doing to convince them to leave and how much it’s costing us.
 
Ok first of all scally does not pay off the remaining part of their contract. He uses the term ‘to mutually end the contract’ that basically means you can leave for free and get another club but you won’t be getting any cash from me.
The next issue is that many clubs in league one and two have now largely spent budgets and the squads are pretty much sorted. So this makes it difficult to move or get a club in a similar division. They have to really need a player who plays in a specific position. If this had have happened weeks ago it would have been much easier for some players to get clubs. The third choice is to go as a free agent do a deal with scally to pay some of your contract and then you take a huge risk on finding a club.
Remember the club signs the player on these deals so they should honour them and not put them into ‘constructive dismissal ‘ position. That being said most players wouldn’t take the club to a tribunal because Evans could give the players a ‘bad press’ to other clubs if interest is shown and just kill a players career.
 
Alpahabet he just tells them they are not part of his future plans and bully’s them and makes the atmosphere hostile for them
 
Ok first of all Scally does not pay off the remaining part of their contract. He uses the term ‘to mutually end the contract’ that basically means you can leave for free and get another club but you won’t be getting any cash from me.

Not sure if you’re responding to me or not. I don’t think I did suggest he pays off the whole of the remaining part of his contract. I doubt Scally or any chairman has ever done that as it’s just a waste of money. You’d sooner leave them in the reserves as an example. Actually we might have done it with JET, but that was a loan not a perm contract. I said the reality would be closer to ripping up the contract (as you’ve suggested), or your third choice, pay some of the contract up:
The third choice is to go as a free agent do a deal with scally to pay some of your contract and then you take a huge risk on finding a club.

This is clearly what happens with a number of our players when they leave and then re-sign with another club a few hours later IMO. I can imagine the situation exactly. Player is told he’s not wanted. He goes to find another club, but new club will only offer him 70% of his current wages, which he doesn’t want to take a pay cut. Player goes to scally and agrees to leave if Scally pays off 30% of his contract as a ‘mutual termination agreement’. Scally offers 20% and the player accepts, knowing he’ll be going to a new club he’s wanted at. GFC saves 80% of the player’s wages off the budget and can spend that on a new player they think will be an improvement, and the player gets a 10% wage reduction etc. but is able to move on.

The next issue is that many clubs in league one and two have now largely spent budgets and the squads are pretty much sorted. So this makes it difficult to move or get a club in a similar division. They have to really need a player who plays in a specific position. If this had have happened weeks ago it would have been much easier for some players to get clubs.
While a lot of budgets have been spent, there are still lots of clubs signing players. We still need 3-4 players for example. Evans clearly hadn’t made up his mind yet, or has changed his mind based on getting to know the players more. He is entitled to do so.

Remember the club signs the player on these deals so they should honor them and not put them into ‘constructive dismissal ‘ position.
Really? Are we that naïve here? It also works both ways. Players ultimately demand moves and down tools when they want to move on. As long as Evans is better at it than Hessie was (we all know what he did with Mccammon when trying to force him out), then it’s okay by me. I don’t doubt it happens everywhere up and down the country. Given we have a Lawyer as CEO and Scally’s been burnt before in the Mcgammon case, as well as the fact Evans has a huge wealth of experience, I would assume we’re doing it just on the right side of the law this time. In fact if we had Evans when Mccammon was around we might have saved a load of money (and our reputation too).

Alphabet he just tells them they are not part of his future plans and bully’s them and makes the atmosphere hostile for them

Yes this does not surprise me at all. In fact I would expect this would need to be his approach. It’s ruthless but required to achieve his aims. Hessie tried the same with Mccammon, but was clearly not as experienced at this.

What’s absolutely evident is that Kettners absolutely hates Evans and the approach he’s taken for this. I guess because you know the players personally that he’s bullying/getting rid of. I’d imagine a fair few of the players hate him too now, but it’ll no doubt be written into their mutual termination agreements that they cannot make negative comments about the club/manager.

Of course it becomes an issue if you see players aren't playing for him. But yesterday the players definitely seemed to be playing for him in my eyes.
 
Ok first of all scally does not pay off the remaining part of their contract. He uses the term ‘to mutually end the contract’ that basically means you can leave for free and get another club but you won’t be getting any cash from me.
The next issue is that many clubs in league one and two have now largely spent budgets and the squads are pretty much sorted. So this makes it difficult to move or get a club in a similar division. They have to really need a player who plays in a specific position. If this had have happened weeks ago it would have been much easier for some players to get clubs. The third choice is to go as a free agent do a deal with scally to pay some of your contract and then you take a huge risk on finding a club.
Remember the club signs the player on these deals so they should honour them and not put them into ‘constructive dismissal ‘ position. That being said most players wouldn’t take the club to a tribunal because Evans could give the players a ‘bad press’ to other clubs if interest is shown and just kill a players career.

Kettners we don't know your role at the club but looking at some of your recent comments, I'm surprised you're still employed.
If you are an employee you do have a duty of care to your employer and that includes comments made on social media.
As has been said in this thread you clearly are against Evans and his tactics in building his squad. This is not unusual and also happens in industry which I have personal experience of from both sides.
None of these players were new to Evans, he had been watching the Gills for the best part of 2/3 months last season and had sufficient time to form his own view on the playing squad.
Who can really disagree with the players that he has let go. They didn't do it for us last season and emotion apart none were worth keeping.
 
That statement is made to sound that the reason Garmston wasn’t playing is because he’s injured. Evans has no intention of playing him fit or not. He injured both of them by overloading them in training by making them train hard with the under 23s then Evans personally making them run 5-10km after the session daily. He also made them travel to Peterborough with no intention of them playing ... because he can bully . He has them in 3 x per day at odd times. They don’t train with the first team squad and he’s just making it uncomfortable to be there. Nobody deserves to be treated like that in any occupation. Thankfully they are only mild injuries. Evans goes into say that everyone needs to be fit ... as we have lack of options and he should be back on the training ground on Thursday. Ha ha Evans won’t use Garmston whether he is fit or not he’s told him so. So why make bullshit and misleading statements like that ?
That sounds like bullying to me. Aren't there laws to protect employees in the workplace in instances like this?
 
Kettners we don't know your role at the club but looking at some of your recent comments, I'm surprised you're still employed.
If you are an employee you do have a duty of care to your employer and that includes comments made on social media.
Not really sure it's for us to tell kettners what he can or cannot write. he's clearly an intelligent adult so will be aware of the risks he's taking. I for one enjoy his ITK input and insight.
 
Not sure if you’re responding to me or not. I don’t think I did suggest he pays off the whole of the remaining part of his contract. I doubt Scally or any chairman has ever done that as it’s just a waste of money. You’d sooner leave them in the reserves as an example. Actually we might have done it with JET, but that was a loan not a perm contract. I said the reality would be closer to ripping up the contract (as you’ve suggested), or your third choice, pay some of the contract up:


This is clearly what happens with a number of our players when they leave and then re-sign with another club a few hours later IMO. I can imagine the situation exactly. Player is told he’s not wanted. He goes to find another club, but new club will only offer him 70% of his current wages, which he doesn’t want to take a pay cut. Player goes to scally and agrees to leave if Scally pays off 30% of his contract as a ‘mutual termination agreement’. Scally offers 20% and the player accepts, knowing he’ll be going to a new club he’s wanted at. GFC saves 80% of the player’s wages off the budget and can spend that on a new player they think will be an improvement, and the player gets a 10% wage reduction etc. but is able to move on.


While a lot of budgets have been spent, there are still lots of clubs signing players. We still need 3-4 players for example. Evans clearly hadn’t made up his mind yet, or has changed his mind based on getting to know the players more. He is entitled to do so.


Really? Are we that naïve here? It also works both ways. Players ultimately demand moves and down tools when they want to move on. As long as Evans is better at it than Hessie was (we all know what he did with Mccammon when trying to force him out), then it’s okay by me. I don’t doubt it happens everywhere up and down the country. Given we have a Lawyer as CEO and Scally’s been burnt before in the Mcgammon case, as well as the fact Evans has a huge wealth of experience, I would assume we’re doing it just on the right side of the law this time. In fact if we had Evans when Mccammon was around we might have saved a load of money (and our reputation too).



Yes this does not surprise me at all. In fact I would expect this would need to be his approach. It’s ruthless but required to achieve his aims. Hessie tried the same with Mccammon, but was clearly not as experienced at this.

What’s absolutely evident is that Kettners absolutely hates Evans and the approach he’s taken for this. I guess because you know the players personally that he’s bullying/getting rid of. I’d imagine a fair few of the players hate him too now, but it’ll no doubt be written into their mutual termination agreements that they cannot make negative comments about the club/manager.

Of course it becomes an issue if you see players aren't playing for him. But yesterday the players definitely seemed to be playing for him in my eyes.

My phone went to the most recently posted message. I then started scrolling up through this one. Halfway up (2 mins scrolling) I thought to myself ‘I bet this is an AK post’. :grinning:
 
Football managers can be brutal.

I'm still affected by the the management of British Sisalkraft Sunday team telling me to pick up my kit and fuck off.

Brutal
 
That sounds like bullying to me. Aren't there laws to protect employees in the workplace in instances like this?

There were a couple of cases a couple of years ago IIRC (cant remember the club's) where players had involved the PFA after being ousted from the first team and forced to train with the kids.

Whilst we might not be privey to all that goes on you can be certain that players talk and will be looking around thinking is it going to be me next that falls out of favour or is frozen out. If, and I say IF, SE is being as brutal (some may say truthful) as it sounds with players he doesn't like/want IMO it won't be long before the dressing room turns, that's not a way to build trust and a dressing room ethic.It may also hurt us as a club going forward as word in football circles travels quite fast.

I also find it hard to believe that PS less than a year ago offered Oldaker a deal until the summer of 2021 presumably on the recommendation of the then manager, now he's saying he can go for nothing on the recommendation of a different manager. This instant shortermism is not good for GFC, but that's something that comes with constantly changing manager.
 
Don’t tell Brexiteer what he can tell people not to do.

Don’t tell AJ to tell Brexiteer not to tell people what they can and cannot say.

Actually, wait, no.

It might be best if you don’t tell AK not to tell Brexiteer not to tell people what to say. I think it’s for the best, but it’s up to you. I wouldn’t tell you what to do.

There.
 
Whilst SE is now in charge and we have to accept that, knowing where kettners is coming from I can understand how he feels.

Actually kettners, I was talking with someone last week (not going to say who, but he is a former L1 manager) who echoed quite a lot of what you have been saying.
 
Actually kettners, I was talking with someone last week (not going to say who, but he is a former L1 manager) who echoed quite a lot of what you have been saying.

You mean specifically about Steve Evans?

I’d have thought a lot of managers “freeze out” for want of a better term, players that are not in their plans. And I think they wouldn’t go out of their way to make everything hunky-dory for a player in that situation so that they are very comfortable just “taking a wage”.

It was said that MA did that. And I’m sure I’ve read a lot of football autobiographies (both managers and players) where that sort of thing is regularly mentioned or implied. Even talked about as if it is the norm or to be expected if you are on the outer.

I’d be very surprised if most managers didn’t take that kind of route to some degreee, and particularly a manager like SE.

This is football we are talking about and it can be a very brutal and cut-throat industry.
 
Are we sure that Garmston and Oldaker weren't away having a trial somewhere, it's always easy to think the worst of our club but we don't know what goes on behind closed doors.
 
You mean specifically about Steve Evans?

I’d have thought a lot of managers “freeze out” for want of a better term, players that are not in their plans. And I think they wouldn’t go out of their way to make everything hunky-dory for a player in that situation so that they are very comfortable just “taking a wage”.

It was said that MA did that. And I’m sure I’ve read a lot of football autobiographies (both managers and players) where that sort of thing is regularly mentioned or implied. Even talked about as if it is the norm or to be expected if you are on the outer.

I’d be very surprised if most managers didn’t take that kind of route to some degreee, and particularly a manager like SE.

This is football we are talking about and it can be a very brutal and cut-throat industry.


OSK, more to do with person to person relationships in particular players and certain manager/s. Sorry to be a bit cryptic, I`m not name dropping as there are consequences to that sort of thing. But, some of what kettners has said about relationships i had said to me by someone in the game who knows how certain people talk to others. There`s a lot, lot more shouting and bawling goes on in dressing rooms and offices than many of us would think. Some have particularly strong, well based, reputations for that sort of thing....... Again, sorry to be vague, i don`t want to get personal because, as i mentioned, there can be consequences to simply slagging off named individuals.
 
OSK, more . There`s a lot, lot more shouting and bawling goes on in dressing rooms and offices than many of us would think.

Dunno about anyone else, but I’ve always thought there’d be a heap of bawling goes on around most football clubs. Nothing new.

The John Sitton documentary imho was pretty much the norm for football coaches in a lot of sports. Fergie was well known for giving players the “hair dryer”. I think Cloughie had a similar reputation. Warnock and Ternent allude to that kind of thing happening all the time. A lot of AFL and Rugby League coaches over here are said to be very “vocal”. Although a lot are having to change their ways in today’s climate.