Sjoke 3 points ? | Page 6 | Vital Football

Sjoke 3 points ?

:hmmm:.......hasn't changed since you last changed it ........and won't change until the point when you change it again?

Sorry. Teasing. You get my point re Jones though. I bet the Stoke fans are well pissed off at the moment........ LWLLLD
 
Made in Wigan said:
To clarify, I'm advocating a change post season unless I see dramatic improvement, not now.

Craig I'd argue the issue was the poor choice of replacement rather than a poor decision in dispensing with the previous incumbent.
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I dont understand how this argument keeps coming up, picking a bad replacement doesn't mean that sacking a failing manager was the wrong choice - just like if you cash out of a bet and
Made in Wigan said:
Incorrect again, my view hasn't changed. You'll note I advocated a change post Sheffield united, though stated when it didn't happen it would not be beneficial to do so later when the window was shut. I also said stay up or go down his position requires reassessment post season.
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I think everyone agreed that was the moment if you were going to change that was the best and maybe only time to do it. IEC nailed their colours to the mast and now baring things getting massively worse to the point of utter crisis and desperation we have to stick with it.

The comments made by Cook at the forum really changed my opinion on him. He said that despite the teams play being completely unrecognisable he is telling them to do the exact same things, he said it's not so much about tactics it's about the players and he also said about defending throwins he tells them every week and the players don't ever do anything about it. And they all set alarm bells ringing for me.

If he isn't setting them up differently as he claims but the play is so far off script and the players aren't improving on throwin defending despite his working on it constantly then that suggests a fundemental inability to get the team to implement his instructions both in matches and on the training pitch. And the bit emphasising the importance of players over tactics is something that a club like ours simply isn't in a position to do. Due to our inability to fund the signing of proven, superior players to the opposition we will almost certainly always have inferior squads compared to the majority of teams in this league, so we can't be relying on quality of individaul players to carry us (he even admitted that was sometimes the case last season in L1) - we have to make teams that are greater than the sum of it's parts - and to do that it's about the tactics. We need to be aspiring to replicated what Monk is doing at Birmingham - inhereted a bang average squad and managed to squeeze every drop of talent out of them, have them super well drilled and organised and play to their limited strengths and mask their weaknesses with their approach - it's all about the tactics.

I used to think Cook was making bad choices, but they were deliberate choices i just disagreed with. But after the fans forum comment i don't think he was lying and it made me think it's a genuine inability to make the players carry out his ideas and that is concerning in a different way.

If Cook keeps us up there is probably no chance his position will be under question with IEC. But his comment i feel shed some light on the problems we have and will probably continue to face.
 
moonay said:
:hmmm:.......hasn't changed since you last changed it ........and won't change until the point when you change it again?

Sorry. Teasing. You get my point re Jones though. I bet the Stoke fans are well pissed off at the moment........ LWLLLD
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I was really shocked at how much long ball Stoke played considering Jones was meant to have a slick passing style at Luton - i assume Stoke fans are just as shocked. It was clearly a deliberate tactic too rather than a transition from an old bad habit. It was utter insanity considering Stoke have players like Allen, Woods and Ince in the midfield and it plays against their strengths. You could see when Stoke kept the ball down they had some very good quality to hurt us but all too often they just lumped it and one think that we are quite good at it dealing with long balls. I think Stoke were guilty of doing exactly what we've been so often guilty of and not playing to their best strengths and into the oppositions.
 
The dilemma we are in now is that the expectation level was raised by our early season form. Had we not got off to the start that we did then expectations would have been more realistic and our current league position would have appeared to be more in line with the pre season predictions of the posters on this board. Having said that Cook would then be being touted as a decent manager for keeping us out of the relegation zone all season and there would be no one suggesting we reassess his position either now or at the end of the season. I would happily have taken our current position prior to the season starting and been happy that we are six points and three places clear of relegation and I am sure there are many more like me. The general consensus pre season was that survival was the key element to this season and that PC would have done a good job if we achieved that, so what has changed since then, we are exactly where we were predicted to be. Perhaps we should all stand back and reassess our own expectations rather than consider joining the revolving door of management change again.
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
I was really shocked at how much long ball Stoke played considering Jones was meant to have a slick passing style at Luton - i assume Stoke fans are just as shocked. It was clearly a deliberate tactic too rather than a transition from an old bad habit. It was utter insanity considering Stoke have players like Allen, Woods and Ince in the midfield and it plays against their strengths. You could see when Stoke kept the ball down they had some very good quality to hurt us but all too often they just lumped it and one think that we are quite good at it dealing with long balls. I think Stoke were guilty of doing exactly what we've been so often guilty of and not playing to their best strengths and into the oppositions.
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Perhaps, like Cook, the Stoke players were guilty of not doing what the manager set them up to do. Like you I believe PC when he says that the players are not carrying out his instruction whilst on the field, however this could be a lack of confidence in their own ability to do so, or it could be that they simply don't believe in the system. Either way given our financial position PC has a problem, he doesn't have the funds to bring in the players who will carry out his instructions or the one with the confidence to do so.

Nathan Jones has a similar problem by the look of it. There is sufficient talent in the squad to play a decent game yet the players resorted to pumping long balls forward. Perhaps as with us their is a lack of confidence in the squad given their results from earlier in the season.
 
moonay said:
:hmmm:.......hasn't changed since you last changed it ........and won't change until the point when you change it again?

Sorry. Teasing. You get my point re Jones though. I bet the Stoke fans are well pissed off at the moment........ LWLLLD
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Unsure how, as my view hasn't changed.

I think the job maybe too big for Jones at present. He's trying to cut his teeth at this level with big name players for this league and big expectations. He won't have managed these type of egos before and motivating them won't be easy. We know how McLean for example reacted toward Rosler.
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
The dilemma we are in now is that the expectation level was raised by our early season form. Had we not got off to the start that we did then expectations would have been more realistic and our current league position would have appeared to be more in line with the pre season predictions of the posters on this board. Having said that Cook would then be being touted as a decent manager for keeping us out of the relegation zone all season and there would be no one suggesting we reassess his position either now or at the end of the season. I would happily have taken our current position prior to the season starting and been happy that we are six points and three places clear of relegation and I am sure there are many more like me. The general consensus pre season was that survival was the key element to this season and that PC would have done a good job if we achieved that, so what has changed since then, we are exactly where we were predicted to be. Perhaps we should all stand back and reassess our own expectations rather than consider joining the revolving door of management change again.
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Nail firmly on the head there TB......well for me anyway. As you said our great start to the season & the flashes of excellent games where we overcame stiff opposition probably lead me to believe we were going to be at least in the play off positions or thereabouts. So maybe need to readjust my expectations somewhat. My fear then is what happens next season....stick / twist with PC????
 
TRUE BELIEVER said:
The dilemma we are in now is that the expectation level was raised by our early season form. Had we not got off to the start that we did then expectations would have been more realistic and our current league position would have appeared to be more in line with the pre season predictions of the posters on this board. Having said that Cook would then be being touted as a decent manager for keeping us out of the relegation zone all season and there would be no one suggesting we reassess his position either now or at the end of the season. I would happily have taken our current position prior to the season starting and been happy that we are six points and three places clear of relegation and I am sure there are many more like me. The general consensus pre season was that survival was the key element to this season and that PC would have done a good job if we achieved that, so what has changed since then, we are exactly where we were predicted to be. Perhaps we should all stand back and reassess our own expectations rather than consider joining the revolving door of management change again.
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I understand what you are saying about expectation but i don't think those first handful of games are the issue as i feel most people realised we would drop as the momentum faded (probably not such a collapse as it has been though). I feel the frustration is more the general level of performance - how many times this season have we played well? I'm not talking about ripping up trees and 5 star performances as it's unrealistic to think you will get them every week - that is not the standard you realistically expect every week, just a good solid 3 out of 5 performances? It's not very many and it's not been enough - especially in a lot of games where the opposition has not been anything to shout about. No matter how bad the teams below us are we still have a certain standard of performance we want to see as a minimum we've fallen short of too often.


TRUE BELIEVER said:
Perhaps, like Cook, the Stoke players were guilty of not doing what the manager set them up to do. Like you I believe PC when he says that the players are not carrying out his instruction whilst on the field, however this could be a lack of confidence in their own ability to do so, or it could be that they simply don't believe in the system. Either way given our financial position PC has a problem, he doesn't have the funds to bring in the players who will carry out his instructions or the one with the confidence to do so.

Nathan Jones has a similar problem by the look of it. There is sufficient talent in the squad to play a decent game yet the players resorted to pumping long balls forward. Perhaps as with us their is a lack of confidence in the squad given their results from earlier in the season.
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If as a manager you can't get the players to do as they are told I think it's the sign you are a bad manager tbh - especially if it's so unrecognisable from your plan. Jones has only just got there so he will get a benefit of the doubt but if the players wont listen to the manager or the manager is unable to work out effective training methods to get them to implement his ideas then they are destined to fail.
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
I was really shocked at how much long ball Stoke played considering Jones was meant to have a slick passing style at Luton
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Seriously king ?...you usually talk much sense but must take issue with this. I thought Stoke played us off the park for 70 minutes with ball firmly on deck....although we did aid and abet this with our reluctance to press them. I was quite bemused at their league position, maybe it's their shit finishing because if they had ( finished ) we would have lost that game.
 
hindleymonwafc said:
Seriously king ?...you usually talk much sense but must take issue with this. I thought Stoke played us off the park for 70 minutes with ball firmly on deck....although we did aid and abet this with our reluctance to press them. I was quite bemused at their league position, maybe it's their shit finishing because if they had ( finished ) we would have lost that game.
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They were dangerous on the deck when they kept it down but so often played it out nicely and got to about the halfway line then went for for a long diagonal to Vokes and Afobe who rarely got the better of Dunkley and Kipre in the air. They kept it down more after Afobe went off but they long balled it loads of times when they were much better passing it. They were doing what we're often guilty of.
 
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