Serious question | Page 3 | Vital Football

Serious question

Agree with all that. Yes I looked into the background.
I don't follow or believe anyone as all are only human. As you say the times and the persons experience guide them.
Same as when people try to diss Gandhi or MLK - need to stop looking for a perfect human and go on your own path lol. Same issue with animal farm, his american backers only wanted to promote it as anti communism message instead of anti all authoritarian regimes.

Yeah, totally. The way opponents of socialism (and this is especially true in the States) have misappropriated 'Animal Farm' and claimed it as their own has always really pissed me off. It is most definitely NOT a book against socialism. What it clearly is, is a book against totalitarianism. As you say, not only Stalin's flavour of totalitarianism but ALL forms of totalitarianism.
 
Interesting to see which jobs you consider to be surplus.

Without bankers, how would I be able to buy a mortgage to own a house? How would I save for my retirement? How would I pay the bills when I’m temporarily out of work? How will the government finance the building of new hospitals? How will the electrician afford to buy a van so the s/he can drive to fix electrical faults? How would the pharma compnIes who are trying to invent a vaccine for Covid be able to spread the risk of R&D?

PS - I’m not a banker - but to say that they aren’t essential to the world we live in is bizarre.

We don't need bankers, trashy. We really don't!

I'd agree that if we went back to the old way of doing things we would. But my whole point is that we should use this opportunity to create a new and better society. One where the people who do the real work are recognised. The bankers have only ever served themselves.
 
Perhaps this website should be viewed in red and short sport a hammer and sickle instead of a whistle.

The idea of a traveller calling anyone else, no matter what their background, a parasite is absolutely incongruous. The sooner the originator f***s off to North Korea, where he can starve with the rest of them, the better.

I won't see any reply he might make, I have "ignored" him for the sake of my blood pressure.

Sorry if anyone else is offended, I am a bit liverish this morning!
 
Perhaps this website should be viewed in red and short sport a hammer and sickle instead of a whistle.

The idea of a traveller calling anyone else, no matter what their background, a parasite is absolutely incongruous. The sooner the originator f***s off to North Korea, where he can starve with the rest of them, the better.

I won't see any reply he might make, I have "ignored" him for the sake of my blood pressure.

Sorry if anyone else is offended, I am a bit liverish this morning!

Well, there you have it, folks!

Shame you can't see my response, Bert, cos that, mate, is post of the century!

Is he a banker or just a w@nker??
 
We don't need bankers, trashy. We really don't!

I'd agree that if we went back to the old way of doing things we would. But my whole point is that we should use this opportunity to create a new and better society. One where the people who do the real work are recognised. The bankers have only ever served themselves.

I think in the history of civilisations, every single one that has evolved, “prostitution” was the first profession and “money lender” was the 2nd profession formed. Basically, because as soon as someone didn’t have the money for the first, they went hot-foot to the 2nd.

If you can show me a utopia where there is no need for anyone to be available to tide people over when they have no goods or chattels (and rip them off in better times) then you are a better man than me.

Actually, scrub that. You’re probably a better man than me just for trying to conceive of such.
 
I think in the history of civilisations, every single one that has evolved, “prostitution” was the first profession and “money lender” was the 2nd profession formed. Basically, because as soon as someone didn’t have the money for the first, they went hot-foot to the 2nd.

If you can show me a utopia where there is no need for anyone to be available to tide people over when they have no goods or chattels (and rip them off in better times) then you are a better man than me.

Actually, scrub that. You’re probably a better man than me just for trying to conceive of such.

You're right about the two oldest professions being the two oldest professions.

You ever heard that phrase, "Your oldest mates aint necessarily you're best mates, they just got their first?"

Just because prostitution and usury are the two oldest professions doesn't make them worthy professions.

The idea of anybody having to sell their body is pretty horrific. And the entire concept of usury is morally abhorrent. Remember, it is the one thing that made meek and mild Jesus lose his shit!

Just because something has been so for very many centuries does not mean it is a good thing. Let's not forget that until very recently slavery was something that had always been the way of the world (some might say it still is!).

Usury should be condemned to the dustbin of history. Prostitution should perhaps still have a place, but NEVER EVER because there is no other choice for someone other than to prostitute themselves.
 
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If you can show me a utopia where there is no need for anyone to be available to tide people over when they have no goods or chattels (and rip them off in better times) then you are a better man than me.
Is that not how things will be in this country when all the furlough money dries up, and universal credit is cut when we finally conquer Covid 19 and the government starts to claw back all the money spent?
 
You're right about the two oldest professions being the two oldest professions.

You ever heard that phrase, "Your oldest mates aint necessarily you're best mates, they just got their first?"

Just because prostitution and usury are the two oldest professions doesn't make them worthy professions.

The idea of anybody having to sell their body is pretty horrific. And the entire concept of usury is morally abhorrent. Remember, it is the one thing that made meek and mild Jesus lose his shit!

Just because something has been so for very many centuries does not mean it is a good thing. Let's not forget that until very recently slavery was something that had always been the way of the world (some might say it still is!).

Usury should be condemned to the dustbin of history. Prostitution should perhaps still have a place, but NEVER EVER because there is no other choice for someone other than to prostitute themselves.

I never said they were morally right Buddha. Just that in every civilisation, they occurred very early and independently.

Doesn’t that tell you something? Even if it’s just about human nature and why “utopia” just ain’t possible.
 
I can visualise the last Sunderland goal, he had long curly hair and it was a header but I can't remember his fucking name!

Howard Pritchard scored ours.

Did he? I though he was the big black center back?

I think you are mixing him up with eric gates who scored a couple that day.
 
Did he? I though he was the big black center back?

I think you are mixing him up with eric gates who scored a couple that day.

The big, black centre back (can't remember his name either, I did say GFC 85-95, not Sunderland!) scored their third. Gates did get one though, was it the first or the second?
 
The big, black centre back (can't remember his name either, I did say GFC 85-95, not Sunderland!) scored their third. Gates did get one though, was it the first or the second?


Yep apologies you are correct.

Bennet was his name and he s scored to take it into extra time that's what confused me. What a day that was !
 
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First of all, please let me say that the following is not meant to sound arrogant or as though i'm blowing my own trumpet, but I do consider myself to be something of an expert when it comes to George Orwell. This aint really anything that great, or anything to be proud of, because there are so many more important or worthwhile things that I could have better spent my time on; so many other useful things that I could have invested my time in and gained expertise in instead!

But you'd be hard pushed to find me anything he wrote that I've not read. There might be an obscure letter or Tribune article that I missed or can't remember, but by and large, I am extremely familiar with his work and much of his stuff I have re-read multiple times. And I've also read more than a dozen biographies and countless articles written about him. With most things I know nothing or very little; with a few things I know a bit; with a handful of things I know a hell of a lot. George Orwell is one, Gillingham FC 1985-1995 is another!!

Having got that out of the way, just wanted too make a couple of points.

valencia claimed to be a socialist and a patriot, and Jerry then made reference to Orwell, which valencia took, understandably, as a compliment. I took that to mean Orwell is someone that valencia admires. This might seem strange at first. How can it be that both valencia and Buddha, who appear to have such opposing political views, both admire the same writer, especially given that that writer was so overtly political? How is it that Orwell's work can appeal to, or be representative of, two people who have such different point of views?

Actually, it's not so difficult to understand as it first seems. Orwell was, in essence, quite a contradiction. He most definitely was a patriot, though at the same time he opposed nationalism. He most definitely was a socialist, yet at the same time he held deep contempt for the bourgeois socialists of the 1930s (so much so that he dedicated half a book to attacking them!). Both Anarchists and Conservatives can easily find Orwell quotes that will support their arguments. As can Liberals, Socialists and patriots.

Part of the contradiction in Orwell comes from the fact that he came from a lower middle class family but was educated at Eton. Despite his privilege of attending Eton, his status as a lower middle class scholarship boy meant that he was near the bottom of the social scale, at Eton at least. Though he developed an understanding of the conditions of the poor and most definitely felt sympathy for the working classes, his own life experiences meant that he has no real understanding. He might have been able to sympathise but he couldn't empathise.

Then, as I'm sure loads of you already know, he went 'undercover' as a 'tramp' and his experiences were recounted in 'Down and Out in Paris and London'. This was partly inspired by having read a Jack London book called, 'People of the Abyss'. (This book is hard to find but I found a copy, I think at Aberdeen University, years ago and it is absolutely brilliant!). In 'Down and Out', Orwell is a little disingenuous because he gives the impression that he really did put himself 100% in the role of a tramp, or a 'down and out'. In reality this stretches the truth a little. Whilst in London he most certainly had places he could go to escape (if only temporarily) his self-imposed role, and in Paris he had an aunt who, if need be, could provide him some refuge. Nevertheless, he did essentially experience life on the margins and at last had a REAL understanding of the difficulties of living on next to nothing.

Not that this stopped him having class prejudice. On way to fight as a volunteer in Spain he was impressed by the camaraderie of those travelling with him on the train because a bottle of wine was being passed around. Orwell knew the bottle was coming his way and he felt internal conflict; he wanted very much to partake in the communal drinking of the wine yet at the same time he was freaking out that he was gonna have to put the same bottle that had touched these other men's lips up to his own. And the idea of that disgusted him!

There are other times when his class prejudice or simple lack of understanding is demonstrated. Whilst staying in Paris he is at one point holed up in some dank apartment and he is bemoaning the injustices of poverty. He explains that he has spent his last few centimes on some milk and is heating it on a small stove. He is hungry but whilst he's heating the milk a bug falls into it. This he sees as the final injustice; this is what happens to the poor - it's the last of the milk but it's been wasted because a bug has fallen in it. There is no option but to throw the milk away! Now I'm damn sure that any one of you who has ever really been hungry would know immediately that the milk would not have been thrown away! Orwell's concern for the poor is endearing but his conclusion that the milk must be wasted is pure middle class idiocy.

Anyway, I've gone off the point a bit, sorry, probably my early morning potato fix that's responsible for that!

My main point, I suppose, was that Orwell was such a contradiction, such an individual thinker and so opposed to dogma, that within his writings there is such a wide-range of opinions, ideas and reflections that supporters of various political ideologies can claim him as their own. And that's why an anarchist like me and a right-wing conservative (I'm being kind here, valencia, not calling you a fascist!) would both take a comparison to Orwell as a compliment.

One final thing, Jerry. The Lion and the Unicorn is an interesting piece and there are definitely bits in it that I wholeheartedly agree with. Nevertheless, I'd suggest doing a bit of research into when it was written, who commissioned it, and what it's real purpose was. I'd suggest that it was a deliberate attempt by him to appeal to the Left to support the war effort. For me it was the only consciously dishonest thing he wrote. You might not agree but check out the background. For me it was pure propaganda.

Sorry if I've gone on!
You've made AK really jealous.
:-)
 
Lots of people declare bureaucrats, civil servants and local government workers a burden and call for swingeing cuts in their numbers. Many of the same people call for new laws to address their pet problems. Every single new law begets more of the people they wish to see gone.
 
Lots of people declare bureaucrats, civil servants and local government workers a burden and call for swingeing cuts in their numbers. Many of the same people call for new laws to address their pet problems. Every single new law begets more of the people they wish to see gone.

Yep. Love that bit in “Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy” where an entire useless 3rd of the population (bureaucrats, bankers, phone sanitisers) was got rid by sending them off into space. And everyone left behind was happy until one day they all died of a virus caught from a dirty telephone.

Brilliant 👏