Russia opposition leader shot dead outside the Kremlin

Russia invaded the Ukraine not us. Libya was a civil war, so again not caused by us! Iraq was a mistake, but Saddam was a proper ****, we made a mess of that for sure. Syria is another civil war.

Whatever you think of the West's strategy towards these countries, all of the ones you mentioned other than The Ukraine have or had despotic rulers that oppress and murdered their own people. It's a bit hard to stand by and let it happen, much the same as knowing your neighbour is being beaten by there other half, you have to interfere, sometimes it might make it worse, but it's a risk you have to take.

The Ukraine on the other hand was trying to become more democratic, but as soon as Putin sniffed a few weren't happy HE jumped into a country that has NOTHING to do with him!
 
BodyButter - 28/2/2015 16:01

Do you really believe the Ukraine has nothing to do with Russia?
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Don't be a clown, it's a separate country!! Most Ukrainians want to be part of the west, but guess what, Putin think it belongs to him, he want's it to become part of Russia again. And you think that's right?
 
thefacehead - 1/3/2015 01:56

BodyButter - 28/2/2015 16:01

Do you really believe the Ukraine has nothing to do with Russia?
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Don't be a clown, it's a separate country!! Most Ukrainians want to be part of the west, but guess what, Putin think it belongs to him, he want's it to become part of Russia again. And you think that's right?
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The Ukraine has always been in Russia's sphere of influence. They have very close links. Their relationship is similar to what an independent Scotland would be to England than two completely independent countries like England and France.

Unfortunately, you can't just read the newspapers and go with whatever they are telling you. International affairs are very complicated and the western idea of stomping around the world trying to impose our views on the world only leads to disaster like in Syria, Iraq, the Ukraine, Libya, etc.
 
You'll have to go back to what I said before in that case, I'm not arguing in circles!

The Ukraine don't want Russian involvement, that's the difference!!
 
thefacehead - 1/3/2015 02:10

You'll have to go back to what I said before in that case, I'm not arguing in circles!

The Ukraine don't want Russian involvement, that's the difference!!
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But they do want US involvement?
 
BodyButter - 28/2/2015 17:16

thefacehead - 1/3/2015 02:10

You'll have to go back to what I said before in that case, I'm not arguing in circles!

The Ukraine don't want Russian involvement, that's the difference!!
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But they do want US involvement?
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If the US have no involvement then some would say they are just hanging them out to dry. Ukraine are trying to become a democratic country, if Russia get their claws back in the all of the hard work will have been undone. If The Ukraine wanted to be part of Russia again then it would have happened by now.
 
Here's a good watch on the subject;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9hOl8TuBUM
 
The $5bn figure is since 1993. Less than $500m has been pumped into Ukraine since 2009, and more than half that was on humanitarian projects such as prevent sex trafficking.

Whilst I am no big fan of the US, and blame it for much of the Worlds ills, I don't see how they are completely to blame for this one!!!
 
Just split Ukraine. It's inevitable that it'll happen at some stage.

Unsurprising that Russia eventually made a stand, the West have been encroaching on their perceived sphere of influence for years. If you back a dog into a corner, don't be surprised when it bites you.
 
HeathfieldRoad1874 - 28/2/2015 13:08

The trouble is the propaganda over in Russia is convincing them we are the problem.

I did think that in this day and age of the Internet, more information would be widely available, but Putin has managed to convince most that he is right.

Very worrying times indeed. Fra more of an issue than ISI, for example.
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The west is the problem...

The US is trying to directly interfere in Russias 'sphere of influence' if any country tried to do to the US what they are doing to Russia it would create enormous tension... The US and friends overthrew a democratically elected Government that was friendly with Russia, and tried to replace it with an anti-Russian regime and thats how it all kicked off...
 
Don't feck about with Russia is my advice, honestly they don't feck about and would come for us before USA
 
ClivetheVillan - 28/2/2015 21:36

Don't feck about with Russia is my advice, honestly they don't feck about and would come for us before USA
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Been poking the bear for near 25 years trying to encircle and keep them down... They're turning a generation of Pro-American people back to Anti-American...

Ex-KGB by runs the country with thousands of nuclear weapons at his disposal and the US just keeps pushing his buttons... Its bizarre that people dont understand Russia, Putin has to put on the front because Russians crave a strong leader who shows no weakness...

Sleepwalking to a greater conflict because corporations run America and they want Ukraine's energy resources... Russia isnt going to stand by and let something happen on its doorstep...

Putin should really just come out and say 'What are you gona do?' cause the answer is we can do nothing... Smartest thing to do is pull out and let that shit run its course...
 
I think what is being missed here is that when the USSR broke up, giving the peoples of the Baltic countries etc freedom to chose what they wanted, instead of being dictated by Moscow, the majority wanted freedom from Moscow.

Ok, there are always factions who want to remain, with Russia and in that instance, they have two choices. 1/ stay where they are and accept majority rule or 2/ fuck off to Russia if they love it so much..... simple.

But of course, it doesn't work like that, oh no, that's too simple. Instead you have the minority trying to dictate to the majority...... it happens in other places in the world too..... unfortunately.

 
Pride of Lions - 1/3/2015 01:24

I think what is being missed here is that when the USSR broke up, giving the peoples of the Baltic countries etc freedom to chose what they wanted, instead of being dictated by Moscow, the majority wanted freedom from Moscow.

Ok, there are always factions who want to remain, with Russia and in that instance, they have two choices. 1/ stay where they are and accept majority rule or 2/ fuck off to Russia if they love it so much..... simple.

But of course, it doesn't work like that, oh no, that's too simple. Instead you have the minority trying to dictate to the majority...... it happens in other places in the world too..... unfortunately.
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When Ireland chose to become independent from Britain the people of ulster(most of it anyway)were listened to, and northern Ireland was created.

Why would anyone deny the same rights to the people of eastern Ukraine? If the people of eastern(what is now Ukraine,previously Russia/USSR)prefer to retain their links to Russia, that should be their choice.
 
NI Villan - 1/3/2015 01:49

Why would anyone deny the same rights to the people of eastern Ukraine? If the people of eastern(what is now Ukraine,previously Russia/USSR)prefer to retain their links to Russia, that should be their choice.
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'The West' likes to pick and choose you know...

The vast majority of people don't understand much outside their bubble and this is one of those where people dont get the danger we're in...

Just confirms my suspicions about the average joe... :17:
 
CDX_EIRE - 1/3/2015 14:48

NI Villan - 1/3/2015 01:49

Why would anyone deny the same rights to the people of eastern Ukraine? If the people of eastern(what is now Ukraine,previously Russia/USSR)prefer to retain their links to Russia, that should be their choice.
Click to expand...

'The West' likes to pick and choose you know...

The vast majority of people don't understand much outside their bubble and this is one of those where people dont get the danger we're in...

Just confirms my suspicions about the average joe... :17:
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What danger is that then?
 
CDX_EIRE - 28/2/2015 19:51

HeathfieldRoad1874 - 28/2/2015 13:08

The trouble is the propaganda over in Russia is convincing them we are the problem.

I did think that in this day and age of the Internet, more information would be widely available, but Putin has managed to convince most that he is right.

Very worrying times indeed. Fra more of an issue than ISI, for example.
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The west is the problem...

The US is trying to directly interfere in Russias 'sphere of influence' if any country tried to do to the US what they are doing to Russia it would create enormous tension... The US and friends overthrew a democratically elected Government that was friendly with Russia, and tried to replace it with an anti-Russian regime and thats how it all kicked off...
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Oh, I know, but sending in the Tanks? It's nuts. A massive over-reaction.

Whilst interference from the West is a problem, I don't think we can shift out perception too far the other way. Putin is a problem as well. He spent just as much trying to destabilise the pro-west support in Ukraine.

Just look at the reaction to Nemtsov's death. There are a good proportion of Russians that don't trust him. Estonia are worried, and other ex-Russian states are not too comfortable.

Just like Israel/Palestine, they're both as bad as each other, as far as I can see.
 
CDX_EIRE - 1/3/2015 05:48

NI Villan - 1/3/2015 01:49

Why would anyone deny the same rights to the people of eastern Ukraine? If the people of eastern(what is now Ukraine,previously Russia/USSR)prefer to retain their links to Russia, that should be their choice.
Click to expand...

'The West' likes to pick and choose you know...

The vast majority of people don't understand much outside their bubble and this is one of those where people dont get the danger we're in...

Just confirms my suspicions about the average joe... :17:
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So on that logic, should 48% of Scotland form their own state away from Scotland? I'm Cornish, some down here want independence, I don't, they're in the minority, therefore they don't get what they want. When Northern Ireland had a referendum on whether to leave the UK it was overwhelmingly voted in favour of staying, but a few thousand thought they should become a United Ireland, why weren't they listened to?

It is up to them at the end of the day, but as with Northern Ireland, military support is essential to prevent all out war. shooting down innocent civilians with rocket launchers isn't the actions of people that have any reasonable motives.
 
But there was no Northern Ireland until it was separated from the rest due to a unionist majority in 4 of ulsters 9 counties. Typical example of the west's "do as we say, not as we do" attitude. Utter hypocrisy.
 
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