refunds | Vital Football

refunds

wxgill

Vital Squad Member
#1
After e-mailing 3 senior staff and having no reply i tried Twitter.

Reply:

"Good Afternoon. We have no official communication to give supporters at this time. As and when we do, we will upload to the usual platforms."
 

Bromley_GFC

Vital Squad Member
#2
I bought a ticket for the Fleetwood home match but there's no way I will ask for money back for that the club can keep it that's due to me being a very passionate supporter.

I'm sure there are more casual fans that will be desperate for refunds or season ticket holders who I would like to think would let Gills keep the money (as we're gonna need every penny available in this climate) but understandable if it works out about £150 worth of matches missed is different to my £24...

I know Charlton have already dished out refunds for the Millwall match which is now behind closed doors.

I will not be requesting a refund back personally but as much as I won't ask for any money with fear of our club going under we are still a business and others will be entitled to a refund if that's what they actually want. Over to Paul Scally now, it will be interesting how it plays out.
 

nitram77

Vital Squad Member
#3
At the moment the club are still hemorrhaging money, wages and costs don't simply disappear, yet there is no money coming in.
Paying out refunds at the moment could be the final nail in the coffin, until we know when the new season will start, and when supporters might be allowed back in, there could very likely be no money for refunds.

I posted this on the wrong thread. :unsure:
 

alphabet_king

Vital 1st Team Regular
#4
I bought a ticket for the Fleetwood home match but there's no way I will ask for money back for that the club can keep it that's due to me being a very passionate supporter.

I'm sure there are more casual fans that will be desperate for refunds or season ticket holders who I would like to think would let Gills keep the money (as we're gonna need every penny available in this climate) but understandable if it works out about £150 worth of matches missed is different to my £24...

I know Charlton have already dished out refunds for the Millwall match which is now behind closed doors.

I will not be requesting a refund back personally but as much as I won't ask for any money with fear of our club going under we are still a business and others will be entitled to a refund if that's what they actually want. Over to Paul Scally now, it will be interesting how it plays out.
Its a hard one....

I think they should at least offer a refund, along with a begging letter telling us all the club needs the money.

I would not take our refund. And that includes the 150 quid i sunk into a mascot package a few weeks before it all happened too.

However, all of the above comes with a condition. And its quite serious for me...The key question for me has not been answered, is scally still going to take a pay cut?

Unless he announces he will be taking a significant pay cut from his 300K PER YEAR salary, i just dont see how he can ask us to take the hit. Sorry but we have to all be in this together.

Im no scally basher in the slightest. In fact im probably fairly well known on the facebook pages for constantly 'supporting' him, but there is just no option for him this time IMO. He needs to take leadership here and go public.
 
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chris who

Vital 1st Team Regular
#5
:chill:
Its a hard one....

I think they should at least offer a refund, along with a begging letter telling us all the club needs the money.

I would not take ours. And that counts for the 150 quid i sunk into a mascot package a few weeks before it all happend.

However, all of the above comes with a condition. And its quite serious for me...The key question for me has not been answered, is scally still going to take a pay cut?

Unless he announces he will be taking a significant pay cut from his 300K PER YEAR salary, i just dont see how he can ask us to take the hit. Sorry but we have to all be in this together.

Im no scally basher in the slightest. In fact im probably fairly well known on the facebook pages for constantly 'supporting' him, but there is just no option for him this time IMO. He needs to take leadership here and go public.
Spot on.It is impossible for me to see how any chairman of a club like ours can expect to take over a quarter of a million in annual income and expect to stay in business. Scally simply can't but then I am sure he is not the only chairman currently facing that dilemma. If we sell off players of course a chairman could still take a large salary. But long term it won't work and short term it will mean crowds will drop even further. Scally and some other chairman have a big decision to make in the next few weeks.
 

Bromley_GFC

Vital Squad Member
#7
Its a hard one....

I think they should at least offer a refund, along with a begging letter telling us all the club needs the money.

I would not take ours. And that counts for the 150 quid i sunk into a mascot package a few weeks before it all happend.

However, all of the above comes with a condition. And its quite serious for me...The key question for me has not been answered, is scally still going to take a pay cut?

Unless he announces he will be taking a significant pay cut from his 300K PER YEAR salary, i just dont see how he can ask us to take the hit. Sorry but we have to all be in this together.

Im no scally basher in the slightest. In fact im probably fairly well known on the facebook pages for constantly 'supporting' him, but there is just no option for him this time IMO. He needs to take leadership here and go public.
Great post to be fair, I'd like to think the majority will do their bit to help keep the club afloat but if we are prepared to do so and I'm assuming 95% if not more Gills fans are on lower incomes than Scally then of course it's only right he takes a hit too. If not, our supporters will become very resentful and it's easy to understand why.

Let's see how it plays out and I'm not condemning Scally for this just yet but he will have to cut his own salary by a decent amount to get us all onside and "in this together". 👍🏻
 

markinkent

Vital 1st Team Regular
#8
This was released by the club 10 days ago:

https://www.gillinghamfootballclub.com/news/2020/june/chairmans-letter/

But what did it mean?

Did anyone volunteer ? I read on one of the facebook groups that someone did but they just got an out of office reply. No one way of knowing if that's true or not.

The bond offer will be interesting, if it happens. If people have their eyes wide open then its up to them. I think people should cautiously view it as a donation rather than an investment.

An earlier post (maybe on a different thread) said that we are still bleeding cash. I think that's unlikely as you would expect 90%+ of all staff to be furloughed.

Losing money for sure but not as bad as it would have been without the furlough.
 
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jogills

Vital 1st Team Regular
#9
Has anyone formally requested a refund in writing? Some of those posting on social media would be beter doing that than publicly moaning. It would be interesting to know if anyone has had a response.

In all the debates about Scally, not going there, someone always says:

" He owns the club he can do what he wants with it."

If that is the relationship we have then we have a right to ask for our money back if we don't get what we paid for. I have never seen it like that and have no intention of asking for my money back.
 

markinkent

Vital 1st Team Regular
#10
I can't disagree with that Jo. A bit of transparency, a bit of communication (as eager exile says) would go a long way to maintain the goodwill needed if people are going to donate good sums of money to someone who earns £300K+ from the club

Compare Scallys communication to Evans during this period ? One person clearly cares about the fans, wants to keep them onside and generate good will. The other ?

Communication with the fans has never been scally's strong point, but now more than ever its necessary. He needs us to forgo any refunds and ideally donate more to the club through his bond scheme. Getting us on board and "in this together" has never been more important.
 

RotherhitheGill

Vital Squad Member
#11
Also, posted on the wrong thread. Follows comments about being informed and how Scally is performing.

Well let Penfold do something about it! Just try and keep us informed, it's not asking that much is it? Even if he says; "I've not yet decided what to do" would be a step in the right direction :shake:

Reply
 

Baghdad_Rob

Vital Squad Member
#12
An earlier post (maybe on a different thread) said that we are still bleeding cash. I think that's unlikely as you would expect 90%+ of all staff to be furloughed.

Losing money for sure but not as bad as it would have been without the furlough.
Looking at the last set of accounts, the annual wage bill was circa £3.2 million. So this works out at around £266,666 per month. If we assume all staff is on furlough, then we'd be paying out around £53k per month. Of course, not everyone will actually be on furlough so actual salaries paid out per month could be higher.

Even if we are only paying out £53k per month rather than £266,666, we are still bleeding cash when you have zero income in all sense and purposes.

All furloughing is doing is trying to help keep football clubs going long enough that crowds can return and make the clubs solvent again.

In company accounts, director's remuneration is separate so doesn't include any invoicing from Scally. As I suggested before, it would not surprise me if Scally has deferred any monies owed and will only be paid once crowds are back and the club can afford it. Worth baring in mind that Scally owes the club £90k in loans so could theoretically choose to offset any money owed against the loan.
 

alphabet_king

Vital 1st Team Regular
#13
Looking at the last set of accounts, the annual wage bill was circa £3.2 million. So this works out at around £266,666 per month. If we assume all staff is on furlough, then we'd be paying out around £53k per month. Of course, not everyone will actually be on furlough so actual salaries paid out per month could be higher.

Even if we are only paying out £53k per month rather than £266,666, we are still bleeding cash when you have zero income in all sense and purposes.

All furloughing is doing is trying to help keep football clubs going long enough that crowds can return and make the clubs solvent again.

In company accounts, director's remuneration is separate so doesn't include any invoicing from Scally. As I suggested before, it would not surprise me if Scally has deferred any monies owed and will only be paid once crowds are back and the club can afford it. Worth baring in mind that Scally owes the club £90k in loans so could theoretically choose to offset any money owed against the loan.
A bunch of long paragraphs...but whats your point?

Do you think scally should be communicating with the fans better about the key question of a) refunds and b) his remuneration (if he is telling us we cant get refunds).
 

Lark

Vital 1st Team Regular
#14
Looking at the last set of accounts, the annual wage bill was circa £3.2 million. So this works out at around £266,666 per month. If we assume all staff is on furlough, then we'd be paying out around £53k per month. Of course, not everyone will actually be on furlough so actual salaries paid out per month could be higher.

Even if we are only paying out £53k per month rather than £266,666, we are still bleeding cash when you have zero income in all sense and purposes.

All furloughing is doing is trying to help keep football clubs going long enough that crowds can return and make the clubs solvent again.

In company accounts, director's remuneration is separate so doesn't include any invoicing from Scally. As I suggested before, it would not surprise me if Scally has deferred any monies owed and will only be paid once crowds are back and the club can afford it. Worth baring in mind that Scally owes the club £90k in loans so could theoretically choose to offset any money owed against the loan.
All players and permanent club staff are on furlough. Some temporary staff who were on zero hours contracts have not been furloughed and are not being paid.
Players have agreed to 20% wage cuts. Steve Evans has also agreed to a wage cut which he’s mentioned in past interviews. So I believe the money Actually being paid out in wages is much less than you state.

The EFL payments that are normally due to be paid to clubs in the summer months were advanced to March/April to help with the loss of income from no games being played. Of course that will mean a hole in finances come July/August as that money has already come in and probably gone out.

The Premier League agreed to advance £125m to EFL and National League clubs:-
https://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/pl-in-pound125m-advance-for-efl-clubs/178891

So it is not correct to say there’s been no money coming in at all.
Last year’s accounts are now well overdue to be published.
 

Baghdad_Rob

Vital Squad Member
#15
A bunch of long paragraphs...but whats your point?
I was responding to Mark's point of "An earlier post (maybe on a different thread) said that we are still bleeding cash. I think that's unlikely as you would expect 90%+ of all staff to be furloughed "

Since he was referring to the furlough scheme then I responded by pointing out the maths that would be impacted by the scheme.

You missed the point as you seem to be discussing about a completely different issue which my post wasn't even addressing.
 

Baghdad_Rob

Vital Squad Member
#16
All players and permanent club staff are on furlough. Some temporary staff who were on zero hours contracts have not been furloughed and are not being paid.
Players have agreed to 20% wage cuts. Steve Evans has also agreed to a wage cut which he’s mentioned in past interviews. So I believe the money Actually being paid out in wages is much less than you state.
I thought I read somewhere that the club was topping up the 20% that some staff was missing out on going into furlough but since I can't seem to find the posts then I'll dismiss that as hearsay. Assuming what you say about wage cuts is true then as of May 2018 our wage bill was, oh erm.

1593353876621.png

I think someone can't do maths :unsure:. The fact Wayne didn't pick up on it even when deeply examining the accounts for the missing £9m makes me doubt his claim he was Sir David Tweedy.

1593353960811.png

Anyway, £3,584,576 / 12 = £298,795 under normal times. Lets assume that the players get paid on average the same as all other staff, although I suspect the shop workers probably aren't paid a grand a week.

£298,795 a week x (43 players / 81 staff) = £141,188 per month paid to players.

£141,188 x 80% of normal wages = £112,950 per month.

Of course there were a few assumptions made and I took averages, but the point is that if the players are being paid 80% of wages then there is still a sizable chunk of money going out every month.

The EFL payments that are normally due to be paid to clubs in the summer months were advanced to March/April to help with the loss of income from no games being played. Of course that will mean a hole in finances come July/August as that money has already come in and probably gone out.

The Premier League agreed to advance £125m to EFL and National League clubs:-
https://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/pl-in-pound125m-advance-for-efl-clubs/178891

So it is not correct to say there’s been no money coming in at all.
Last year’s accounts are now well overdue to be published.
I didn't say there was no money coming in but "we are still bleeding cash when you have zero income in all intents and purposes."

An advance is not additional revenue and while it will help in the short term, you are merely kicking the income black hole a few months down the line.

Our main sources of income comes from match day. Using a low gate average of 4000 supporters paying an average ticket price of £20** then that is a loss of £80k per match x 6 matches = £480k of lost revenue in the bank. Add on that programmes, club shop and catering and hospitality sales.

The £125m advance to the EPF clubs (and you can bet the bulk of that will go to the Championship and not us) might go part of the way in covering the lost £480k of matchday income in the short term but we are still missing £480k of matchday income from the accounts.

The other problem is with season tickets. Instead of maybe selling close to 3000 season tickets at this point, we have probably sold less than 1000 season tickets to people who took up the cheap £300 early bird tickets. The other 2000 would be season ticket holders are probably waiting about renewing until they know when people are allowed to watch the match live. Even at the cheap £300 early bird price, this would work out at 2000 x £300 = £600,000 less cash in the bank.



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** the cheapest ticket for a match ticket is £20 in the BMS with other stands much more expensive. Since I have no way of working out what percentage of fans in the ground are season ticket holders who'd pay less than the average, I am for sake of argument assuming the extra £s that non-season ticket fans not sitting in the BMS are paying will average out the cheaper ST tickets.
 

Attachments

Bromley_GFC

Vital Squad Member
#17
I thought I read somewhere that the club was topping up the 20% that some staff was missing out on going into furlough but since I can't seem to find the posts then I'll dismiss that as hearsay. Assuming what you say about wage cuts is true then as of May 2018 our wage bill was, oh erm.

View attachment 40481

I think someone can't do maths :unsure:. The fact Wayne didn't pick up on it even when deeply examining the accounts for the missing £9m makes me doubt his claim he was Sir David Tweedy.

View attachment 40482

Anyway, £3,584,576 / 12 = £298,795 under normal times. Lets assume that the players get paid on average the same as all other staff, although I suspect the shop workers probably aren't paid a grand a week.

£298,795 a week x (43 players / 81 staff) = £141,188 per month paid to players.

£141,188 x 80% of normal wages = £112,950 per month.

Of course there were a few assumptions made and I took averages, but the point is that if the players are being paid 80% of wages then there is still a sizable chunk of money going out every month.



I didn't say there was no money coming in but "we are still bleeding cash when you have zero income in all intents and purposes."

An advance is not additional revenue and while it will help in the short term, you are merely kicking the income black hole a few months down the line.

Our main sources of income comes from match day. Using a low gate average of 4000 supporters paying an average ticket price of £20** then that is a loss of £80k per match x 6 matches = £480k of lost revenue in the bank. Add on that programmes, club shop and catering and hospitality sales.

The £125m advance to the EPF clubs (and you can bet the bulk of that will go to the Championship and not us) might go part of the way in covering the lost £480k of matchday income in the short term but we are still missing £480k of matchday income from the accounts.

The other problem is with season tickets. Instead of maybe selling close to 3000 season tickets at this point, we have probably sold less than 1000 season tickets to people who took up the cheap £300 early bird tickets. The other 2000 would be season ticket holders are probably waiting about renewing until they know when people are allowed to watch the match live. Even at the cheap £300 early bird price, this would work out at 2000 x £300 = £600,000 less cash in the bank.



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** the cheapest ticket for a match ticket is £20 in the BMS with other stands much more expensive. Since I have no way of working out what percentage of fans in the ground are season ticket holders who'd pay less than the average, I am for sake of argument assuming the extra £s that non-season ticket fans not sitting in the BMS are paying will average out the cheaper ST tickets.
Okay Baghdad that's enough internet for today.
 

OneSirKeefy

Vital 1st Team Regular
#19
Back to the bit about refunds and transparency. Someone asked that question on Facebook. How is your club dealing with refunds?

Sounds like about 1/2 the clubs have done it well according to their fans. Lincoln, Plymuff, Pompey, Rotherham, Donny? MK, all seem to have communicated and offered various options (refund, or club merchandise or shares or simply donate etc).

The rest have not communicated anything. Gills, Sunderland, Ipswich, Bolton, Swindon, Oxford, Rochdale and others.