Ranking our CM's on key stats. | Page 2 | Vital Football

Ranking our CM's on key stats.

Don't see Hourihane as a scapegoat at all. From what I read it's a balanced appraisal from most as to his well documented strengths and weaknesses.

Same applies to Wesley who in my humble has got far more stick in the 4 months he has been with us than Connor has ever had .
If there is a scapegoat this season its him.

Think we all have to be careful when we accuse others of giving a player stick when at the same time giving equally as much to other players whether you think its justified or not.
 
It's all about opinions isn't it.

Wesley has been shocking. 2 and a bit games in and Samatta is already proving a big improvement.

Hourihane has been 'decent' for years and we wouldn't even be in the Premier league without his goals,and aasists. The players brought in to replace him just haven't done enough for me. I can count on one hand the amount of great games nakamba and Luiz have had between them.
 
Connor proved himself for us in the EFL for 2 and a bit seasons and has not impressed overall this season as he is not getting picked. So unless it's a personal bomb squad thing from Smith against Connor then he is seeing what most of us are about Connor and what he does and more importantly doesn't offer.

Luiz and Marvelous have been trying to prove themselves in the Premier league. We have seen this season that despite popular opinion on here last year there is a huge gap between the divisions. So the 'years' comparison doesn't stand as we would need to see Luiz and Marvelous in the EFL.
(So not long to wait then !!!)
 
It depends what the question is @DeanoVilla . Are we asking if Hourihane merits a place or is it he should replace Marv or Drinkwater?

I don't think Hourihane merits a start simply because our issue is in keeping clean sheets and he won't improve it your stats confirm as much. We're scoring goals, we don't need him but he is a good lad bring on if we're chasing a game or expect to be dominant which is rare.

He doesn't merit replacing Marv simply because he seems to the only one capable of tackling.
He might merit replacing Drinkwater because he is continually played when he is clearly not sharp or fit.
Luiz is 21, the lad is not consistent. Pass completion removes context because Luiz fires cross field passes and plays ambitious passes. Hourihane keeps it simple.

Basically there is an argument for Hourihane to fill the slot beside Marv, until McGinn is back Marv is on his own screening the back 3.

Edit: to close it out, Hourihane can't do the job we need filled. Nobody can except the man thats injured and even then its hard to know if thats true.
 
DeanoVilla said:
So when have Luiz, Nakamba and Drinkwater imposed themselves on a game this season? I must have missed that.

This is my problem. A lot of the points about Conor may be fair, but the other players aren't judged equally.

As said right at the start is happily replace him with someone better. Someone as you say who can impose themselves on games. But none of that trio have at any point this season.
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Hourihane is an attacking midfielder so I judge him on what he does going forward. Nakamba is a defensive midfielder so I judge him on what he does defensively. Nakamba will always make a good amount of tackles and interceptions even when he's having a bad game. Hourihane cannot do anything unless we're against someone like Newcastle who will let us have the ball uncontested till the final 20 yards or if there's a set play.

The game that can sum up connor Hourihane is the cup game vs wolves. He was the main attacking midfielder against a side of kids and reserves of reserves. What did he do. Bugger all. Passed sideways and backwards all night and let Luiz try and play the hard passes. Great player to have on tge bench at this level. Great player to start in the championship. Shouldn't be starting ahead of Nakamba or Luiz at this level.
 
I can settle the Luiz v Connor debate.

At 21 one player has played for Vasco da Gama, been bought by Pep's Man city , played 38 times for Girona and had a cap for Brazil's full international side having made appearances for the u20 and u23 teams prior.

At 21 the other player had yet to make a league appearance having been at Ipswich and Sunderland and was just about spend the next 6 years playing for Plymouth Argyle and Barnsley.
 
If Hourihane had better acceleration and was more mobile he’d be a class player in the league. The thing I’ve always found with Conor, is the lack of acceleration is so stark to watch from the stands along with not really being a player who has a standout engine or strength, does mean he has to be exceptional with the ball at his feet.

I thought his physical failings were apparent in the championship and he can never seem to quite improve these. Given he’s not injury prone he should have no excuses to work on these at least, who knows if he is. You’ll never really make someone quicker, but he’s often quite flat footed I think needs to get on his toes more - that you can teach.

The Hourihane solution is simple - Targett, Jack or Luiz need to work on set pieces and become threats. Anyone but El Ghazi, only danger are the north stand exec boxes when he’s over a free kick.

Hourihane is a decent squad player and for me starts maybe 5-6 games in the league a season at home, against the poorer sides where we would dominate possession to let him have the ball.
 
Stolen of insta, not fact checked: Danny Drinkwater has made five tackles in four PL appearances, and been dribbled past 16 times.

Hourihane has been dribbled last 8 times in 16 appearances (must be cup and sub appearances in that).

I would prefer Hourihane over DD, but I’d fancy myself over Drunkwaiter. Jack and Connor have a good understanding and Connor has a set piece, so there’s two positives.

Maybe this should go on the Official Disgraceful Signing thread, I mean Official Drinkwater thread.
 
DeanoVilla said:
Correct. So why does everyone slate Conor for not being able to tackle, but they don't slate Nakamba for not being able to score or create goals? :hmmm:
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I can't speak for everyone but my problem with him is that he doesn't even try and tackle and he doesn't want the ball or run enough for a midfielder.

Being an AM doesn't give you a free pass to not have to challenge other players for the ball. The problem with some non-striker players who can score half a dozen goals per season is they automatically think they don't have to do the hard graft - like Ghazi - and that makes them a problem for the wider team - like Ghazi.

If they gain a permanent position in the first team then that team, by definition, will be limited as you end up with players who are in a given position in name only but they don't actually do the job and that's the same for Hourihane as it is for Ghazi - they're both pretenders at this level.

Nakamba is an out-and-out DM who is where the ball is 10x more than the likes of Hourihane and Ghazi - he's not likely to score goals or get assists but as his stats show, he'll likely stop more goals being conceded than the likes of Hourihane and Ghazi will ever score.
 
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DeanoVilla said:
So when have Luiz, Nakamba and Drinkwater imposed themselves on a game this season? I must have missed that.

This is my problem. A lot of the points about Conor may be fair, but the other players aren't judged equally.

As said right at the start is happily replace him with someone better. Someone as you say who can impose themselves on games. But none of that trio have at any point this season.
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Luiz has had a couple of stand-out decent games and scored goals from open play, Nakamba (to me) has had two MOTM games this year already but they're both precisely as inconsistent as you would expect them to be at just six months into their PL careers.

DD is, well, DD but he's got an eye for a pass, as has Luiz but I've never seen Hourihane thread a (moving) ball with a sliderule pass to anyone - I don't actually know why that is tbh but nevertheless, I've never seen him do it.

DD can make plays and will put a foot in where it hurts if necessary so that makes him a viable CM ahead of Hourihane there.

Obviously the last player Hourihane is going to compete against for a place is Nakamba (except for Citeh at home - that went well eh??!!) so that leaves Luiz as the more attacking midfielder who I think there's a decent argument to make for why Hourihane could be in the team instead of him as Luiz's form has nosedived recently IMO.

Ultimately, we're a side that leaks goals so virtually every player has to contribute in at least some way to helping us stop that but Hourihane's worst weakness is his lack of physical presence, pace or tackling ability and that, at this level, undoes him I'm afraid.

He's no worse than Ghazi to my eye though mate - if you want him in place of Ghazi then I don't think that would hurt us.
 
DeanoVilla said:
It's all about opinions isn't it.

Wesley has been shocking. 2 and a bit games in and Samatta is already proving a big improvement.

Hourihane has been 'decent' for years and we wouldn't even be in the Premier league without his goals,and aasists. The players brought in to replace him just haven't done enough for me. I can count on one hand the amount of great games nakamba and Luiz have had between them.
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Funny how you say Wesley has been shocking, yet he scored a brace and almost had a hat trick in the same game in which Hourihane gained most of these "statistics" you speak of - Norwich away.

Hes a good lad who did a good job for us in the lower leagues. Like Taylor and Elmo, he just isn't the quality we need anymore.
 
So if Hourihane is that key why is Smith not picking him ?.
If Hourihane is so effective why has he had to wait until he is 28yrs old to play in the top flight for the first time ?.
How come no other manager in the premier league since 2009 (when Connor became a pro) has thought him good enough to sign him.

Marvelous and Luiz do more with and without the ball than Connor. Connor is a luxury player that unless he is scoring or assisting he does not do enough. And lets be honest he isn't going to be scoring or assisting game after game otherwise he wouldn't be with us , therefore he is ineffective too often. The stats are not balanced because they don't take in games or minutes played unless I have read it wrong.
 
ldgavfc said:
Funny how you say Wesley has been shocking, yet he scored a brace and almost had a hat trick in the same game in which Hourihane gained most of these "statistics" you speak of - Norwich away.
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After 3 games Wesley, like Samagoal had scored a single goal.
 
Melon Donkey said:
So if Hourihane is that key why is Smith not picking him ?.
If Hourihane is so effective why has he had to wait until he is 28yrs old to play in the top flight for the first time ?.
How come no other manager in the premier league since 2009 (when Connor became a pro) has thought him good enough to sign him.

Marvelous and Luiz do more with and without the ball than Connor. Connor is a luxury player that unless he is scoring or assisting he does not do enough. And lets be honest he isn't going to be scoring or assisting game after game otherwise he wouldn't be with us , therefore he is ineffective too often. The stats are not balanced because they don't take in games or minutes played unless I have read it wrong.
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Stats are close to useless in these kinds of arguments anyway. You get a sense of how good a player is by watching them, not reading numbers on a screen.

But yeah, these stats are completely thrown because Hourihane has played in majority easy games this season, and has also played in a majority three man midfield making sideways passes under little to no pressure.
 
garygaryshaw said:
I’d have him in a midfield 3 with Marv and Luiz and Jack in the hole just in front of them. When McGinn is back it’s between Conor and Luiz to fight it out
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This. See my post in the Drinkwater thread - why are we not playing 3-5-1-1 with Jack as a number 10 and a midfield three behind him? Instead we are playing with wing-backs and wingers, leaving us woefully short in the middle of the pitch.
 
@The Fear @mike_field @JuanPabloAngel - I think Vital Villa needs to install one of them interactive fancy tactics board thingys where you can move the little dots around, so I can emphasize my posts better and show everyone my tactical genius in securing Premier League safety...
:grinning::grinning::grinning::smoke::smoke::smoke:
 
garygaryshaw said:
I’d have him in a midfield 3 with Marv and Luiz and Jack in the hole just in front of them. When McGinn is back it’s between Conor and Luiz to fight it out
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I think this underpins why he hasn't had any minutes in recent weeks. I get the impression that DS doesn't trust him in a midfield two. If we went back to 433 or were adapted to 352, I bet you'd see more of him.
 
I only really see him as an impact sub if we need a goal. Short of set pieces and shooting he offers very little.

Hourihane has a premier league quality left foot with League One level physical attributes. He's also tactically not very good.
 
gmvillan said:
@The Fear @mike_field @JuanPabloAngel - I think Vital Villa needs to install one of them interactive fancy tactics board thingys where you can move the little dots around, so I can emphasize my posts better and show everyone my tactical genius in securing Premier League safety...
:grinning::grinning::grinning::smoke::smoke::smoke:
Click to expand...


To be fair, all you need to do is read all my insightful posts to know exactly what is going on. And ignore everything MF says.

No need for fancy tactic boards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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