Racism

[sjm1985]

Seriously, 'never allow' !? - LOL! Try saying that to my daughters, (be prepared to run) think you're stuck in a very old-fashioned generational view there!

I dont get it. Did I explain it wrong? Or do you sympathize with the booers?
I wasnt talking about me. I would never boo because of the knee. I dont even boo at the opposition.
My daugter has outed herself as gay and I am totally ok with that. She can bring home whoever she wants.

Or do you think my picture of the booers is totally old-fashioned? Well I dont know anyone of them. So can just imagine and guess.

 

[Spursex]

I dont get it. Did I explain it wrong? Or do you sympathize with the booers?
I wasnt talking about me. I would never boo because of the knee. I dont even boo at the opposition.
My daugter has outed herself as gay and I am totally ok with that. She can bring home whoever she wants.

Or do you think my picture of the booers is totally old-fashioned? Well I dont know anyone of them. So can just imagine and guess.

I think you must have explained it wrong; 'never allow' doesn't apply to most if not all the younger generation you were pointing your quote at.

My point is try and tell your daughter that she can't marry a black person or any other minority you want to point your quote at, do that with mine and the answer would be short and to the point.

Why you think you could do that or anybody could do that in this day and age was and is beyond me!

It was nothing to do with the booing.

 

[Nick Real Deal]

If the players could distance themselves from some or most of BLMs policies and beliefs it might be more palatable. Its a political organisation IMO and actually played a part in getting someone elected if I'm right. Showing support for such an organisation on football pitch is wrong IMO.

 

[SpursEagle]

There is absolutely no room for racism in football. However, there is absolutely no room for the sham BLM organisation either. If people want to boo the symbolic presence of these hate filled race baiters, then that is their right and they should not be labelled as racists for doing so. That's disingenuous and dishonest.

Like Ex said, if the players came up with their own message, even do it hand in hand with Kick It Out, then I'd suggest the booing would be minimised, if not non existent. Taking the knee, no matter how much you want to say has nothing to do with politics etc will never get away from that as it is synonymous with BLM, forever linked, and must be scrapped.

 

[muttley]

What this is really about for me is making sure we don't address inequality and inequity with more of the same, but the other way around. An example would be recent stats sharing that women in their twenties earning more than men in the same role.

It's one of the things I look for when figuring out my depth of support for a group looking for change. I will always support them until the point where they ask for more than equality and equal equity. Up to that point, they have my unwavering support.

That's why I don't like 80's view that the whites should just suck it up argument. That won't help this crazy world in the short, medium or long term.

 

[muttley]

There is absolutely no room for racism in football. However, there is absolutely no room for the sham BLM organisation either. If people want to boo the symbolic presence of these hate filled race baiters, then that is their right and they should not be labelled as racists for doing so. That's disingenuous and dishonest.

Like Ex said, if the players came up with their own message, even do it hand in hand with Kick It Out, then I'd suggest the booing would be minimised, if not non existent. Taking the knee, no matter how much you want to say has nothing to do with politics etc will never get away from that as it is synonymous with BLM, forever linked, and must be scrapped.

But why is this consensus amongst fans so pervasive but so unaddressed by the governing bodies and the media? Is BLM's politics working in their favour?

 

[Departed]

What this is really about for me is making sure we don't address inequality and inequity with more of the same, but the other way around. An example would be recent stats sharing that women in their twenties earning more than men in the same role.

It's one of the things I look for when figuring out my depth of support for a group looking for change. I will always support them until the point where they ask for more than equality and equal equity. Up to that point, they have my unwavering support.

That's why I don't like 80's view that the whites should just suck it up argument. That won't help this crazy world in the short, medium or long term.

It wasn't my view a year ago. I held a view identical to yours. But after really looking at how non-whites had been held back through lack of investment, lack of opportunity, and lack of access to a decent education I have changed my opinion. They need a head start now.

You have to understand, I grew up in a single-parent family, my mother raised 6 children on her own and we had very little when I was young. My original view was if I could pull myself up anyone could. But if I wasn't white it would have been nowhere near as doable as it was for me. I actually didn't REALLY get that until I started listening to people who weren't white but were successful anyway and the shit they had to to go through that I didn't.

 

[SpursEagle]

But why is this consensus amongst fans so pervasive but so unaddressed by the governing bodies and the media? Is BLM's politics working in their favour?

The media is responsible in a large part for all this. My favourite whipping boys, Sky News and Sky Sports being the largest culprits. They did a magnificent job in marketing the organisation. Sky came out with a documemntary within a week, they silenced voices trying to tell them the truth about BLM because it didn't fit the narrative they were spewing.

And Sky sports put together several montages of athletes taking the knee with Black Lives Matter emblazoned big and bold at the end. They have recently changed tack somewhat as their new saccharine message is simply a montage of athletes preaching "Why they take the knee".

Throughout the season, Sky have also shown a Black Lives Matter message on the scoreboard for a minute starting at 8:45 of each game.

And because of this propaganda, the clubs themselves had BLM banners in the stadiums, which did phase out somewhat, but some clubs kept them all season long (Arsenal for example).

So now saying that taking the knee is separate from BLM is really insulting the intelligence of fans, who Rio Ferdinand accused of needing to be educated on BBC this morning. The media has hitched its wagon to their stance and won't admit they were wrong. I can't speak for individuals, but there are some who believe everything the media feeds them, so it could be as simple as that.

 

[sjm1985]

I think you must have explained it wrong; 'never allow' doesn't apply to most if not all the younger generation you were pointing your quote at.

My point is try and tell your daughter that she can't marry a black person or any other minority you want to point your quote at, do that with mine and the answer would be short and to the point.

Why you think you could do that or anybody could do that in this day and age was and is beyond me!

It was nothing to do with the booing.

sorry you missunderstood me. I was trying to paint a picture of the majority who are booing. But if I cant explain it properly I better leave it. (language barrier, english is not my primary language)

 

[Spursex]

sorry you missunderstood me. I was trying to paint a picture of the majority who are booing. But if I cant explain it properly I better leave it. (language barrier, english is not my primary language)

No worries!

 

[muttley]

It wasn't my view a year ago. I held a view identical to yours. But after really looking at how non-whites had been held back through lack of investment, lack of opportunity, and lack of access to a decent education I have changed my opinion. They need a head start now.

You have to understand, I grew up in a single-parent family, my mother raised 6 children on her own and we had very little when I was young. My original view was if I could pull myself up anyone could. But if I wasn't white it would have been nowhere near as doable as it was for me. I actually didn't REALLY get that until I started listening to people who weren't white but were successful anyway and the shit they had to to go through that I didn't.

I get what you're saying but if you create inequality and inequity for these people to compensate now, when do draw a line in the future and figure out you don't need it anymore? The answer is you can't without a whole load of pain again trying to help the social group that was disadvantaged. You'll end up having to give out even more inequality and inequity to try and get the pendulum back to the middle and will end up in state of constant rebalancing.

That is why I can't endorse the approach. Great conversation though.

 

[muttley]

The media is responsible in a large part for all this. My favourite whipping boys, Sky News and Sky Sports being the largest culprits. They did a magnificent job in marketing the organisation. Sky came out with a documemntary within a week, they silenced voices trying to tell them the truth about BLM because it didn't fit the narrative they were spewing.

And Sky sports put together several montages of athletes taking the knee with Black Lives Matter emblazoned big and bold at the end. They have recently changed tack somewhat as their new saccharine message is simply a montage of athletes preaching "Why they take the knee".

Throughout the season, Sky have also shown a Black Lives Matter message on the scoreboard for a minute starting at 8:45 of each game.

And because of this propaganda, the clubs themselves had BLM banners in the stadiums, which did phase out somewhat, but some clubs kept them all season long (Arsenal for example).

So now saying that taking the knee is separate from BLM is really insulting the intelligence of fans, who Rio Ferdinand accused of needing to be educated on BBC this morning. The media has hitched its wagon to their stance and won't admit they were wrong. I can't speak for individuals, but there are some who believe everything the media feeds them, so it could be as simple as that.

Spot on. It's so frustrating and I'm a little ashamed of Southgate for not being stronger in understanding his fans opinions.

 

[Departed]

Spot on. It's so frustrating and I'm a little ashamed of Southgate for not being stronger in understanding his fans opinions.

Populist politics is the ability to manipulate the media to manipulate mass opinion in your favour. The tactic is used by politicians and political entities of all spectrums. It is so pervasive and so effective that it becoming a universal tool.

The cause, lack of critical thinking. Lack of independent thinking. Lack of the ability to think. The complete failure of our educational systems to teach students how to think for themselves instead of imbuing students with the views of the faculty. The faculty hire like minded people so you get group think at all levels.

HEEEELPPPPPP!!!!

 

[Nick Real Deal]

Recognising and participating in BLM posturing could be compared to what political or racist organisation ? Does it compare to EDL or is that pushing it a bit ?

 

[SpursEagle]

Recognising and participating in BLM posturing could be compared to what political or racist organisation ? Does it compare to EDL or is that pushing it a bit ?

That's a tough one, Nick. I'm not sure who they are comparable with. I honestly don't think they are like for like with the EDL, but some might suggest the rioting, looting and murder gone unpunished in their name makes them worse.

For me the way BLM stir racial tensions for their own gain makes me sick, and ditto the EDL who hijack any real discussion with their extreme takes. So BLM on the extreme left and EDL on the extreme right ... both groups can rot as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Spursex]

Recognising and participating in BLM posturing could be compared to what political or racist organisation ? Does it compare to EDL or is that pushing it a bit ?

Well EDL don't exist anymore, nor does any far right party that has gained more than 1% of any local or national election.

BLM on the other hand deny that they are a Marxist political movement, but two of their founders of their leaders confirmed they are a Marxist - go figure.



If Your Time is short

• Black Lives Matter was founded by community organizers. One of the three co-founders said in 2015 that she and another co-founder “are trained Marxists.”
• Black Lives Matter has grown into a national anti-racism movement broadly supported by Americans, few of whom would identify themselves as Marxist.

Backlash against Black Lives Matter includes branding it as Marxist.
The attack has been made in recent weeks by Rudy Giuliani, President Donald Trump’s personal lawyer; Ben Carson, Trump’s secretary of Housing and Urban Development; conservative talk show host Mark Levin; and PragerU, which has more than 4 million Facebook followers.
Aren’t sure what Marxism is, actually? It was developed by 19th century German philosopher Karl Marx and is the basis for the theory of communism and socialism. "Marxism envisioned the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism by the proletariat (working class people) and eventually a classless communist society," Encyclopedia Britannica and Oxford Reference say.
These days, Marxism usually means analyzing social change through an economic lens, with the assumption that the rich and the poor should become more equal.
In a recently surfaced 2015 interview, one of the three Black Lives Matter co-founders declared that she and another co-founder "are trained Marxists."
But the movement has grown and broadened dramatically. Many Americans, few of whom would identify as Marxists, support Black Lives Matter, drawn to its message of anti-racism.
"Regardless of whatever the professed politics of people may be who are prominent in the movement, they don’t represent its breadth," said Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor, Princeton University African American Studies professor and author of "From #BlackLivesMatter to Black Liberation."
"There are definitely socialists within the movement, as there have been in every single social movement in 20th century American history and today. But that does not make those socialist movements, it makes them mass movements," she said.
‘Trained Marxists’

In a Facebook post labeling Black Lives Matter as a Marxist movement, PragerU included a video interview with Carol Swain, a Black conservative and former professor at Vanderbilt and Princeton universities. She said, "Now, the founders of Black Lives Matter, they’ve come out as Marxists."

Swain alluded to Black Lives Matter’s three co-founders, who are still featured prominently on the group’s website — Patrisse Cullors, Alicia Garza and Opal Tometi. Their primary backgrounds are as community organizers, artists and writers. Swain, though, was referring to a newly surfaced interview Cullors did in 2015, where she said:

"We do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia, in particular, are trained organizers; we are trained Marxists. We are superversed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think what we really try to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many Black folks."

We didn’t find that Garza and Tometi have referred to themselves as Marxists. But the book publisher Penguin Random House has said Garza, an author, "describes herself as a queer social justice activist and Marxist."

 

[steveperryman]

Whether they continue to bend the knee doesn't particularly bother me, i just feel we need to move on. Clapping was suggested, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that is there?

 

[SpursEagle]

Whether they continue to bend the knee doesn't particularly bother me, i just feel we need to move on. Clapping was suggested, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that is there?

Absolutely agree. Coming up with their own gesture would remove BLM from the equation and problem solved. In fairness, they've had about 8 months warning that this would probably happen after Millwall fans, and others, booed their players taking the knee back in October when fans were briefly allowed back into stadiums. To let it fester this long and be a talking point on the eve of what is basically a home championships is gross negligence.

 

[SpursEagle]

Former England forward John Barnes says 'football can't solve racism', as he today threw himself into the row over Three Lions stars taking the knee.

The ex-Liverpool winger questioned 'what practical action had been taken' as a result of footballers making the anti-racism gesture.

Barnes, 57, instead urged a focus on tackling knife crime and improving education for young black children.

Speaking to Good Morning Britain today, he said: 'What practical action has been taken in the last year?

'None, apart from whether or not to keep taking the knee to highlight the problem.

‘Football cannot solve racism, society can, councils can, governments can, depending on what your interpretation of racism is.'

Speaking about black footballers such as himself being given statues, he said: ' I would much rather give up this honour for us to deal with the problem of knife crime, jobs, housing, education for young black kids, rather than giving me, or giving footballers or black managers an opportunity to raise themselves up into the upper echelons of society while neglecting 90 per cent of people who are being under-represented.'

It comes as Barnes, a star of England's run to the World Cup semi-finals in 1990, yesterday took to Twitter to share his views on the row - which threatens to overshadow the start of the Three Lions Euro 2020 campaign which begins on Sunday.

Yesterday, the former footballer took a swipe at England manager Gareth Southgate over his insistence that his players will continue to take the knee as they have a duty to 'raise awareness' over racism and inequality.

Southgate had asked for supporters not to boo the stance on the eve of his side's final Euro 2020 warm-up game against Romania at the Riverside Stadium on Sunday, but a minority ignored the manager's pleas.

It comes after Croatia, the team's opponents on Sunday, announced they would not take the knee before the game at Wembley.

Responding to one follower, who praised Southgate's position, Barnes wrote: 'Of course he should support his players... but what does HE think... forget the players... that's what an ally is... someone who believes HE'S doing the right thing, not one who follows the crowd, as the crowd may change direction.'

In another comment, he said: 'I'm 100% behind Gareth to try to win the euros but he doesn't understand how complex racism is and solutions are even more complicated and he and the team are being used by the system to DEFLECT from REAL inequality in the inner cities by SOLELY focusing and concentrating on football.'

He also reiterated his support for Wilfried Zaha, the Crystal Palace and Ivory Coast winger, who was the first in the Premier League not to make the gesture, insisting it had become 'degrading' and had lost all meaning.

Barnes added: 'If Wilfried Zaha played for England and decided not to take the knee, would Southgate then say we won't take the knee and we’ll support him?

'What does GARETH think is the right thing to do? Take the knee, don't take the knee, or just support what the players want?'

The row follows the revelation earlier today that Croatia's national football team will not take a knee ahead of Sunday's clash with England.

The sides will meet at Wembley Stadium, but Croatia will remain standing prior to kick off, as reported by the Athletic, with the country's spokesman Tomislav Pacak indicating that it is not required by UEFA's protocols.

Croatia have never taken the knee in a senior match to date, although their Under-21 side did adopt the stance during this year's European Championship when they faced England.

The world of sport has observed the gesture - popularised by American football player Colin Kaepernick - for more than a year in response to the killing of George Floyd by a white policeman.

However, the knee has been met with a mixed response since supporters have returned to stadiums following the ease of Covid restrictions.

Sportsmail reported on Tuesday that the FA are unhappy with the Government for a lack of support for the England team after jeers were heard at the Riverside Stadium in back-to-back friendlies before kick off.

In a row that could overshadow the game against Croatia, boss Southgate and his players have continued to stress they are united in their desire to keep taking a knee.

 

[SpursEagle]

Barnes raises some interesting points, all of which should have been discussed at length and sorted out months ago concerning a very fixable issue which has now become a farce.