vinniecopenhagen
Vital Football Hero
Hes never going to admit he made it up PJ because that would undermine any future claims of genuine abuse by players,that may/will happen.
Racism
- Thread starter pjones40
- Start date
SpursEagle
Vital Squad Member
Sky Sports news reaction to this was disappointment. At one stage the girl was saying "Will an outcome like this deter others from reporting abuse? Will they think, what's the point?"
Fuck me, but were the club supposed to just pick a poor, random scapegoat from the crowd to satisfy the baying mob of the perpetually outraged? Surely this outcome should be welcomed, apologies made to our fans from an unhealthy reactionary media and questions asked of Rudiger, who now has two false claims to his name.
Fuck me, but were the club supposed to just pick a poor, random scapegoat from the crowd to satisfy the baying mob of the perpetually outraged? Surely this outcome should be welcomed, apologies made to our fans from an unhealthy reactionary media and questions asked of Rudiger, who now has two false claims to his name.
Big Chiv
Vital Football Legend
This is exactly why the club should take further action, you can bet your boots when the next incident takes place , the media will keep referring back to the ' abuse' Rudiger ' suffered' at Spurs.
Our name will be dragged through the mud forever unless some legal action is taken to prevent that happening.
Again ............. serial accuser !
muttley
Alert Team
That is amazing of Sky to say that. Generations and generations of players have been racially abused, taken it on the chin and never reported it. Occasionally, someone plays the racist card. Both are a reality of life unfortunately.
Sky have a responsibility to be fair and objective and it should be down to our club to remind them of that. We worked with the Met Police to choose our words carefully and not allow the anti-racist movement to take a step backwards. Sky are clearly in danger of doing that and as regularly happens are out of control with their messaging.
I believe that the club should inform Sky and the public that they are reconvening with the Met Police to review the words used on SSN to ensure they haven't undermined the due diligence process.
Sky have a responsibility to be fair and objective and it should be down to our club to remind them of that. We worked with the Met Police to choose our words carefully and not allow the anti-racist movement to take a step backwards. Sky are clearly in danger of doing that and as regularly happens are out of control with their messaging.
I believe that the club should inform Sky and the public that they are reconvening with the Met Police to review the words used on SSN to ensure they haven't undermined the due diligence process.
Great post Muttley . Sky clearly have their own agenda on this . It should not be allowed . The club and the police have not rushed this process , or fudged it .
The way things are , nobody should or could expect the two investigations to be more diligent ........and then Sky come out with that , which is awful .
It’s clearly tantamount to a cover up .
Incidentally , well highlighted by SpursEagle
The way things are , nobody should or could expect the two investigations to be more diligent ........and then Sky come out with that , which is awful .
It’s clearly tantamount to a cover up .
Incidentally , well highlighted by SpursEagle
Great post mate
Harry-Kari
Vital 1st Team Regular
Apparently Chelsea have responded by saying that just because there is no proof it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
The problem with that argument is that when there is no evidence to support a statement it requires faith to believe the people making the statement.
Would you have faith in a cheat who had just physically assaulted one of the opposition’s players? I know I don’t.
The problem with that argument is that when there is no evidence to support a statement it requires faith to believe the people making the statement.
Would you have faith in a cheat who had just physically assaulted one of the opposition’s players? I know I don’t.
Spursex
Alert Team
Well I expected Chelsea's mealy mouthed response; they're hardly going to expose their own player to the charges of cheating and lying.
People are terrified to call out those who falsely use the racism card now.
I spent 3 days in court as a witness as my business refused to budge in agreeing to accusations such as this, which were ultimately an attempt to extort money - the settlement demanded to make it 'go away' was way below what a 7 day court case cost along with the appeals; the accuser obviously lost, but it cost my business in excess of £100k of costs we couldn't recover.
I'm disappointed at Spurs inability/unwilliness to come to the defense of the good character of those in that section who were effectively falsely accused, and believe our lack of robust rejection of these claims after the investigation demeans us (the fans) and the club.
People are terrified to call out those who falsely use the racism card now.
I spent 3 days in court as a witness as my business refused to budge in agreeing to accusations such as this, which were ultimately an attempt to extort money - the settlement demanded to make it 'go away' was way below what a 7 day court case cost along with the appeals; the accuser obviously lost, but it cost my business in excess of £100k of costs we couldn't recover.
I'm disappointed at Spurs inability/unwilliness to come to the defense of the good character of those in that section who were effectively falsely accused, and believe our lack of robust rejection of these claims after the investigation demeans us (the fans) and the club.
Harry-Kari
Vital 1st Team Regular
Well said EX.
Spursex
Alert Team
I had minority witnesses at my court case who knew the claim was utterly specious; (the allegations were against one of my senior managers) when I asked them why they'd supported him against these false allegations, they all almost uniformly said (I paraphase) "that those who want to abuse the system for gain will undermine those of us who face genuine racism, as it won't be long that such complaints just won't be taken seriously or properly".
I've always remained mindful of their view and I now know we shouldn't be so afraid that it shouldn't stop us from doing the right thing.; ever, even if that means pointing the finger and saying 'you're a liar' - as Spurs should now be doing with this lying bastard.
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freundorfoe
Vital 1st Team Regular
I've spoken to a ST holder on twitter who thought he heard a monkey chant.
I've seen numerous people who were at the game and many in the stand he gestured towards saying the who let the Yids out chant and/or cheat were likely misconstrued and that the timing fit that interpretation.
Also the Roma complaint wasn't made by Rudiger. It was a UEFA investigation after people complained on twitter. We've all witnessed racism involving Italian fans. Rudiger may have been lying but he gained nothing from doing so as Sonny was already gone. I suspect he misheard something.
I've seen racism from Spurs fans towards Sonny at our games. Let's not pretend that among a fanbase of 100,000s it's impossible to have a few morons. On this occasion he probably got it wrong but there's definitely going to be some racists attending games and anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.
I've seen numerous people who were at the game and many in the stand he gestured towards saying the who let the Yids out chant and/or cheat were likely misconstrued and that the timing fit that interpretation.
Also the Roma complaint wasn't made by Rudiger. It was a UEFA investigation after people complained on twitter. We've all witnessed racism involving Italian fans. Rudiger may have been lying but he gained nothing from doing so as Sonny was already gone. I suspect he misheard something.
I've seen racism from Spurs fans towards Sonny at our games. Let's not pretend that among a fanbase of 100,000s it's impossible to have a few morons. On this occasion he probably got it wrong but there's definitely going to be some racists attending games and anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.
Spursex
Alert Team
Our camera coverage and facial recognition software is as good as it gets; they could not find a single person (and you can focus on each individual via the software analysis) who made mouth movements that could remotely be misconstrued or read as monkey chants or anything similar; so much so and so accurately, the Police gave up and pretty think it was a complete waste of time - for a player to hear this 'chant' against the background of noise that was going on and for no other supporter in that area to have heard it, would be impressive, to say the least!
Harry-Kari
Vital 1st Team Regular
Non of that means Rudiger wasn’t lying and the video evidence of the Son incident shows he is a cheat and liar.
muttley
Alert Team
If you asked Spurs and the Met police to say that there was definitively no racism at the ground that day they couldn't. If we publicly called Rudiger a liar, would he legally have a case for defamation of character? Absolutely. Our very own words in the comm were "however there is no evidence to corroborate or contradict the allegation". Chelsea then said "As Tottenham’s statement makes clear, a lack of evidence does not mean an incident did not take place." That is consistent as is their follow up on the anti-racism messaging.
Chelsea also added "It is vitally important that we continue to encourage all players to report racist abuse without fear of doubt or reprisal.” That to me could be reactive to the Sky nonsense we discussed yesterday evening.
Also worth thinking about the technologies involved. Some audio, pretty decent video coverage and "professional lip readers". To be definitive you would need a fully tested technology that brings together a mash up of extensive audio and video data together and matches certain sound patterns and exact locations to identify the culprits. It's probably a nascent automated intelligence (AI) capability but clearly not at our stadium if we're still using lip readers. Even then would the new technology be 100% or 99%? That in itself makes any investigation anything but bullet proof in its conclusions.
As much as Spurs fans want Rudiger punished, we do need to accept that he could still have been racially abused. My opinion is that he played the race card, but that is just my opinion. I've sat in many an England crowd and heard the "support England away" change littered with the "IRA" rhyming nonsense. I was in my local pub for the game and heard everything from homophobic and racist comments aimed at players not to mention a ton of comments aimed at Harry Kane for his voice. He's apparently retarded because of his nasal voice and North London accent. Go figure.
Chelsea also added "It is vitally important that we continue to encourage all players to report racist abuse without fear of doubt or reprisal.” That to me could be reactive to the Sky nonsense we discussed yesterday evening.
Also worth thinking about the technologies involved. Some audio, pretty decent video coverage and "professional lip readers". To be definitive you would need a fully tested technology that brings together a mash up of extensive audio and video data together and matches certain sound patterns and exact locations to identify the culprits. It's probably a nascent automated intelligence (AI) capability but clearly not at our stadium if we're still using lip readers. Even then would the new technology be 100% or 99%? That in itself makes any investigation anything but bullet proof in its conclusions.
As much as Spurs fans want Rudiger punished, we do need to accept that he could still have been racially abused. My opinion is that he played the race card, but that is just my opinion. I've sat in many an England crowd and heard the "support England away" change littered with the "IRA" rhyming nonsense. I was in my local pub for the game and heard everything from homophobic and racist comments aimed at players not to mention a ton of comments aimed at Harry Kane for his voice. He's apparently retarded because of his nasal voice and North London accent. Go figure.
Nick Real Deal
Vital Football Legend
Yeah you need to be an expert lip reader to spot a monkey ooh, ooh, ooh, chant.
If we publicly called Rudiger a liar wouldn’t he have to prove the existence of racial chants/actions in order to defend his accusations.
We are still pussyfooting around this race thing . It’s abhorrent in any walk of life , any abuse of a person on any level is abhorrent.
But we shouldn’t be running scared on the first hint of it .
The only people who heard the “abuse” in the stadium, full of thousands in that area , was Rudiger and someone on twitter who “thought he heard it .
Was Rudiger isolated in that area at the time , the only player within twenty yards of any body else ? No .
No stewards , who are trained to listen for that sort of thing , heard it .
No fans in the area have said they heard it , there is a great post on this thread from a fan who emailed Donna Cullen and put his name and face in the frame, saying he didn’t hear it.
No officials heard it , but still used the wrong protocol to make the allegations seem worse by having three announcements made over the tannoy (that made it appear that it was an ongoing incident) .
Part of Rudigers claim is clearly that spectators were not only making obscene animal chants but were actually acting out the actions of the animal.
You don’t need lip readers to identify that .
If he saw it , and he clearly “demonstrated”his allegations , as caught in numerous photos , where is the evidence of that . If the noise of the racial abuse could not be heard , which may be understandable (!) then the ACTION of the racial abuse that he saw MUST be clearly visible .
But obviously isn’t .
So to sum up
All Sky’s cameras and microphones didn’t pick it up .
The most sophisticated of CCTV operations didn’t pick it up .
Trained Stewards didnt pick it up .
Spectators in the area didn’t pick it up ( one reported on Twitter that he might have heard it)
Players on the pitch didn’t pick it up .
Officials didn’t pick it up .
Nobody SAW any offending actions either at the time or since .
The Met have found no evidence .
The Chavs have brought no evidence in support of their player .
Yet they are saying that just because of all the above , it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen !
Why don’t we all stop pussyfooting about and say to him , “ look Toni old son , why don’t you just take the opportunity to say it’s possible that you are wrong and say sorry “
But that would just be churlish . Wouldn’t it
All of this is purely my personal opinion , which as we all know counts for nothing .
Rant over
Big Chiv
Vital Football Legend
Well said Walt.
And as being accused of racism nowadays seems to be on a par with being accused of pedophilia, I would think the last thing we need is to encourage anyone to report what they think they hear, I'd say some pretty damned good evidence is required before the word is bandied about and accusations made.
Careers are over and lives ruined if this charge sticks, but hey, what happens if you make it up ?
Sweet FA.
And as being accused of racism nowadays seems to be on a par with being accused of pedophilia, I would think the last thing we need is to encourage anyone to report what they think they hear, I'd say some pretty damned good evidence is required before the word is bandied about and accusations made.
Careers are over and lives ruined if this charge sticks, but hey, what happens if you make it up ?
Sweet FA.
