Racism and Abuse in football | Page 2 | Vital Football

Racism and Abuse in football

Ruskingtony said:
There are always cowards kicking around in society. Most bigots are usually cowards. They must get up every morning thinking how wonderful social media is for them.
They can hide with the total knowledge that they can spread their hatred and vile abuse without fear of being identified.
All the social media outlets play lip service to solving the problem, whilst letting this continue unabated. Politicians spout on about it all the time whilst actually doing nothing about it.
Until something is done to fine the social media companies massive amounts for every time this happens nothing will change.
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I think it needs more than fines. Hold the owners/managers of the social media companies to account for the content of their product, and stick em in prison for anything a normal person would get for shouting the comments in public
 
PerthImp said:
Oh I wish solving racist abuse in football was as simple as telling people to stop. It’s a lot more complex and deep rooted than that unfortunately and we could debate the issue endlessly. There have been studies and educational courses to look at the problem for decades and they have only scratched the surface. It’s a basic human trait which has its roots in tribal conflict and won’t be resolved until parents teach their children properly, teachers reinforce parental education and, perhaps most importantly, political groups and world leaders stop setting the example by abusing and violating their own people and others.

Ooh did I really say that🤔. My brain hurts and I’m going back to bed 😴
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The point about parents is interesting. In principle you are right. But I remember an incident years that has subsequently challenged my thinking. Years ago I went to Wembley on a coach trip with my lads to watch England U18s. There was a black lad at centre forward, who all the lads in the crowd were raving about how good he was. Coming out after the match, a chap and his son (not with us) came out onto another part of the concourse, and the bloke was ranting at his son how disgraceful it was that there were "blacks" playing for England, how it shouldn't be allowed. It made me wonder at what age that man's son would be accountable for his own racist attitudes, and how that lad would respond to the conflicting messages from his father (and presumably other family members) and his teachers
 
when I first moved down south a chap in a pub said to me "ere, do you think its right Northerners should play for England?" I was like ????
 
I remember being stood in Stacey West (when it was standing at the sides), and Keith was on his first spell as manager, and was staggered to hear a couple of our own fans yelling vile racist comments at him.

I think (or hope) that we have all moved on from such times. But maybe these recent reports show not everyone has yet. Shame.
 
The schools I have links with are very active in preaching against racism. They are careful to include black people among heroic figures in history, music and assemblies. In my experience, schools are swift to act against racist language from pupils. I guess social media gives a higher profile to what is a tiny minority of openly racist people, in the same way that the far left and far right have both become more visible. I've not heard racist talk or chants at football in decades and a black friend says she never has any insults or sense of racism towards her.
 
One thing I've noticed (not on here) is on the Nostalgia 70's Footie Facebook sites, posters are quick to moan about players today 'taking the knee' and screaming BLM is a Marxist organisation, yet I guarantee none of them have read Das Kapital let alone even heard of it?

All this 'proper football' nonsense compared to today. I regularly tune in to ITV4 Big Match revisited on Saturday mornings, but some of the games are that poor (eg: Spurs v Chelsea 75') it reminded me of Sunday League football let alone Division 4, the standard was that bad.

There's no wonder England never qualified for tournaments in that decade. :shake:
 
PerthImp said:
Oh I wish solving racist abuse in football was as simple as telling people to stop. It’s a lot more complex and deep rooted than that unfortunately and we could debate the issue endlessly. There have been studies and educational courses to look at the problem for decades and they have only scratched the surface. It’s a basic human trait which has its roots in tribal conflict and won’t be resolved until parents teach their children properly, teachers reinforce parental education and, perhaps most importantly, political groups and world leaders stop setting the example by abusing and violating their own people and others.

Ooh did I really say that🤔. My brain hurts and I’m going back to bed 😴
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I make you right with this. Breaking the cycle of this kind of attitude within families is key for me.
I've long since thought that the same kind of thing is why kids these days (clearly not all of them!) seem to be more aggressive than in years gone by, and get up to more questionable things. I think its been a gradual erosion of respect for other people, through some letting the kids get away with that little bit more than their parents did them.
I took a day off work because of the snow recently. During the day I walked up my street, which is at the foot of a hill, to the shops. On my way back there was an old fella (I guess around 90) walking down the hill on the other side of the road. Being a decent kind of person, I thought I'll slow down and make sure he gets to the bottom without hitting the deck. Being a Yorkshireman, he first started telling me what a twat Boris Johnson was. After that he shocked me somewhat. Next on his casual chat with a stranger was to tell me that he'd moved from another nearby village to mine because of "all the fXCXing darkies that had moved in from London. Suddenly I wasn't too bothered if he got to the bottom safely, although I did hang around anyway. At 90, there is little point me trying to correct him, I simply stopped talking in reply to him. No doubt he would have spoken like this around his kids, and there is a possibility that they may have done around his grandkids, and so on until one of them says "this is wrong".
There is a role for schools in this. Parents have to take the lead in getting respect and moral standards back to where they have been in the past. Sadly, I think modern society has become far too self-centred and it is going to be hard work to eradicate racism and all the other forms of bigotry (ncluding mine against old Yorkshiremen!).
 
Norfolk Imp said:
One thing I've noticed (not on here) is on the Nostalgia 70's Footie Facebook sites, posters are quick to moan about players today 'taking the knee' and screaming BLM is a Marxist organisation, yet I guarantee none of them have read Das Kapital let alone even heard of it?

All this 'proper football' nonsense compared to today. I regularly tune in to ITV4 Big Match revisited on Saturday mornings, but some of the games are that poor (eg: Spurs v Chelsea 75') it reminded me of Sunday League football let alone Division 4, the standard was that bad.

There's no wonder England never qualified for tournaments in that decade. :shake:
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Always makes me laugh when I see ‘Marxism’ as a term of abuse, when they have absolutely no idea what Marxism even means, but they’ve been told it’s ‘bad’ by the Daily Mail.

Im sure there’s a chapter in Das Kapital where he says getting footballers to kneel before a football match is all part of his evil plan to overthrow capitalism.
 
Regarding this, it is not helpful when the current government of the day is opposed to alternative contemporary viewpoints (i.e. the victims) of colonialism being included in the curriculum when the subject is being studied.
 
MaineRoad_96 said:
The fact that some people appear desperate to equivocate when faced with clear evidence of outright racism pretty much underlines why we still have a problem in this country.
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I think the problem here is you seem to be proving the point. Rather than everyone saying yes problem and trying to discuss problems pro and con activism surrounding these things it is immediately seen as trying to excuse non acceptable views or attempting to belittle the drive to combat racism.

Racism is of course still in existence. Examining the effect of left wing politics upon the matter does not mean you are defending, dismissing or belittling anything but there is zero doubt that there is as large (if not larger) element on the far left that utilise social justice issues in order to protect their actual politics from scrutiny. To scrutinise these people with the highest moral arguments means that you must be racist/fascist/bigoted/greedy etc.

The problem we have is that one side (rightly) is attacked for their behaviour, views, tactics the other side is beyond reproach because they hide their arguments behind moral arguments.

The end result is that while politicians try to make everybody a victim (of something) to try and tar their opposition and build a shield around their own tribe they end up diluting any chance of solving the moral issues that they were shouting about so much.

Is there racism in the UK. Undoubtedly. Are things improving? Since I were a lad in the 80s it has improved immeasurably. Are the current arguments valid? Of course they are but I am not so sure that very visible and publicised social media posting means that racism is on the increase. Check through social media and you would think everything is on the increase.

My only anecdotal evidence other than not hearing or seeing as much as back in the 80s is that my wife (who happens to be a foreigner and Black) has not experienced any racism since she arrived here in 2004. In fact she found England an incredibly welcoming country and continues to experience this despite the painted picture of "colonial Empire builders wot hate foreigners."

Indeed, back in the day in the 80s when I fancied Whitney I heard several people call me an N**** lover, not with aggression, just casually used without any thought it could be unacceptable. I have not heard that phrase for at least 20 years now if not more...........and we've (the wife and I, not Whitney) been "lovers" now for 17 years.

Other than the tiny tiny minority in this country we really are a nice welcoming lot............unless you're Welsh, Scottish or ginger of course.
 
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GreenNeedle said:
I think the problem here is you seem to be proving the point. Rather than everyone saying yes problem and trying to discuss problems pro and con activism surrounding these things it is immediately seen as trying to excuse non acceptable views or attempting to belittle the drive to combat racism.

Racism is of course still in existence. Examining the effect of left wing politics upon the matter does not mean you are defending, dismissing or belittling anything but there is zero doubt that there is as large (if not larger) element on the far left that utilise social justice issues in order to protect their actual politics from scrutiny. To scrutinise these people with the highest moral arguments means that you must be racist/fascist/bigoted/greedy etc.

The problem we have is that one side (rightly) is attacked for their behaviour, views, tactics the other side is beyond reproach because they hide their arguments behind moral arguments.

The end result is that while politicians try to make everybody a victim (of something) to try and tar their opposition and build a shield around their own tribe they end up diluting any chance of solving the moral issues that they were shouting about so much.

Is there racism in the UK. Undoubtedly. Are things improving? Since I were a lad in the 80s it has improved immeasurably. Are the current arguments valid? Of course they are but I am not so sure that very visible and publicised social media posting means that racism is on the increase. Check through social media and you would think everything is on the increase.

My only anecdotal evidence other than not hearing or seeing as much as back in the 80s is that my wife (who happens to be a foreigner and Black) has not experienced any racism since she arrived here in 2004. In fact she found England an incredibly welcoming country and continues to experience this despite the painted picture of "colonial Empire builders wot hate foreigners."

Indeed, back in the day in the 80s when I fancied Whitney I heard several people call me an N**** lover, not with aggression, just casually used without any thought it could be unacceptable. I have not heard that phrase for at least 20 years now if not more...........and we've (the wife and I, not Whitney) been "lovers" now for 17 years.

Other than the tiny tiny minority in this country we really are a nice welcoming lot............unless you're Welsh, Scottish or ginger of course.
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It’s a completely false equivalence. The ‘far left’ (whatever that means in this context) has no relevance whatsoever to the issue of condemning and taking action against racist abuse of footballers on social media.
 
MaineRoad_96 said:
It’s a completely false equivalence. The ‘far left’ (whatever that means in this context) has no relevance whatsoever to the issue of condemning and taking action against racist abuse of footballers on social media.
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I didn't say it did. The actual start of this OP was about racist abuse. The trend was to assume it was on the increase. I would suggest it isn't, merely that everything (including racism) is highlighted and much more visible despite constantly reducing in reality.

The far left have as much blame for slowing this reduction as the far right. Not far behind the centre left and right because they weaponise these issues to try and herd votes and thus dilute the effect they can have on these issues.

It is plain wrong for anybody to suggest it is on the rise though. The reality is that it is just more visible now. Before you only saw strangers (or maybe people you know) saying or doing things in the places you go to. These days the world comes to you and Joao Bloggsio from t'other side of the world is now beamed to your newsfeed because they said or did something bad. Before Joao Bloggsio would have had to been where you were within earshot for you to know.

These issues are reducing. If politicians would stop playing games (all sides) with these issues they might actually have a chance of making faster progress.

One solution though. If they would just turn off the internet then we would be back to not knowing and we would think that we were on the brink of eradicating these things.
 
GreenNeedle said:
I think the problem here is you seem to be proving the point. Rather than everyone saying yes problem and trying to discuss problems pro and con activism surrounding these things it is immediately seen as trying to excuse non acceptable views or attempting to belittle the drive to combat racism.

Racism is of course still in existence. Examining the effect of left wing politics upon the matter does not mean you are defending, dismissing or belittling anything but there is zero doubt that there is as large (if not larger) element on the far left that utilise social justice issues in order to protect their actual politics from scrutiny. To scrutinise these people with the highest moral arguments means that you must be racist/fascist/bigoted/greedy etc.

The problem we have is that one side (rightly) is attacked for their behaviour, views, tactics the other side is beyond reproach because they hide their arguments behind moral arguments.

The end result is that while politicians try to make everybody a victim (of something) to try and tar their opposition and build a shield around their own tribe they end up diluting any chance of solving the moral issues that they were shouting about so much.

Is there racism in the UK. Undoubtedly. Are things improving? Since I were a lad in the 80s it has improved immeasurably. Are the current arguments valid? Of course they are but I am not so sure that very visible and publicised social media posting means that racism is on the increase. Check through social media and you would think everything is on the increase.

My only anecdotal evidence other than not hearing or seeing as much as back in the 80s is that my wife (who happens to be a foreigner and Black) has not experienced any racism since she arrived here in 2004. In fact she found England an incredibly welcoming country and continues to experience this despite the painted picture of "colonial Empire builders wot hate foreigners."

Indeed, back in the day in the 80s when I fancied Whitney I heard several people call me an N**** lover, not with aggression, just casually used without any thought it could be unacceptable. I have not heard that phrase for at least 20 years now if not more...........and we've (the wife and I, not Whitney) been "lovers" now for 17 years.

Other than the tiny tiny minority in this country we really are a nice welcoming lot............unless you're Welsh, Scottish or ginger of course.
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Dont forget the French, who we hate more than the germans despite the war! But because of several other wars.
 
GreenNeedle said:
I didn't say it did. The actual start of this OP was about racist abuse. The trend was to assume it was on the increase. I would suggest it isn't, merely that everything (including racism) is highlighted and much more visible despite constantly reducing in reality.

The far left have as much blame for slowing this reduction as the far right. Not far behind the centre left and right because they weaponise these issues to try and herd votes and thus dilute the effect they can have on these issues.

It is plain wrong for anybody to suggest it is on the rise though. The reality is that it is just more visible now. Before you only saw strangers (or maybe people you know) saying or doing things in the places you go to. These days the world comes to you and Joao Bloggsio from t'other side of the world is now beamed to your newsfeed because they said or did something bad. Before Joao Bloggsio would have had to been where you were within earshot for you to know.

These issues are reducing. If politicians would stop playing games (all sides) with these issues they might actually have a chance of making faster progress.

One solution though. If they would just turn off the internet then we would be back to not knowing and we would think that we were on the brink of eradicating these things.
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Certainly agree with you about the internet! I suppose experience of it increasing or decreasing is quite anecdotal, and if you’re the victim of it it’s of no consolation if it’s an isolated incident.

Is it less frequent than the 70’s? Undoubtedly. Is it becoming more prevalent from say five or ten years ago? Possibly. What seems clear to me is a worrying emergence of equivocation in the face of clear cases of racism, as if the presence of (for example) BLM somehow justifies not taking action, or at least seems to create a distraction.
 
EastvilleIMP said:
Taking the knee is a token gesture imo.

Accountability needs to be there on online platforms - ID on signup. With tough punishments for those who are abusive.. imo it should go for any discrimination.
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I think taking the knee is a visible sign of solidarity. Does more need to be done? Of course.

There's a reason people remember the Black Power salute at the Olympics. Or, indeed Kaepernick first taking the knee.
 
MaineRoad_96 said:
Certainly agree with you about the internet! I suppose experience of it increasing or decreasing is quite anecdotal, and if you’re the victim of it it’s of no consolation if it’s an isolated incident.

Is it less frequent than the 70’s? Undoubtedly. Is it becoming more prevalent from say five or ten years ago? Possibly. What seems clear to me is a worrying emergence of equivocation in the face of clear cases of racism, as if the presence of (for example) BLM somehow justifies not taking action, or at least seems to create a distraction.
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You can criticise things that surround an issue without discrediting the issue itself. Lots of people have issues with BLM, Antifa, Soros which does not mean they disagree with the issues of racism. Because you criticise Soros you are then told you are an anti semite..........even if you never knew he was Jewish.

This is the main problem. There are lots of groups with varying problems, many around their tactics or those that live on the peripherie of them yet any criticism is an immediate attack on that criticsm because you cannot possibly criticise anything with a message of [insert very real problem in society] without being anti that message.

BLM itself has made quite a lot of people rich, lots of celebs jump on these trains (you have to hope for unselfish reasons,) lots of politicians and their masters jump on the train and quite often fund it for mostly their own gain.

You only had to watch the US 2016 election where both Hilary and Trump would just continually drop in lists of [insert minority] as if just giving them a mention meant it was believable that you were fighting for them. This the same Hillary who started the birther issue when she wanted to beat Obama. Trumps "wall" in 2016 is bad bad, racist. Hillary's "wall" in 2008 wasn't?

Watch the rallies from either side in the US every time (not just 2016) Not just the politicians and all their allies that will reel off the minorities in their statements but their supporters in the audience with their banners!!!

"women for Trump", "Latinos for Trump", "Gays for Biden." We even had it here for a while with Corbyn!! Banners"Jews for Corbyn." "Jews against Corbyn."

People question not the subject but quite often groups that utilise something that needs to change for their own benefit. More often than not for political, monetary or power gain.

Maintaining those divides is essential to these powerful people to ever let it diminish, so as that divide closes they highlight issues more, they extend what they encompass as being in that divide and they make sure they set either side of the divide against each other to try and open it up again.

Most times the people with the power and money that are funding or promoting these things are the architects of the problem getting (or appearing) worse because they want it to get worse because it pulls more power or money to them.

Marcus Rashford is a bit different because he is a normal fella, that came from the bottom and just wants to help. The danger is when powerful people latch on to him. use it for political or status gain and then it starts to go wrong.
 
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