Promotion or Win FA Cup | Page 3 | Vital Football

Promotion or Win FA Cup

100% Promotion, not even a second thought.

But to be fair i would've taken survival over the FA cup when we won it. I know not many would agree but i took that stance from a purely pragmatic view of the huge financial implications of relegation and the damage it would do to the clubs ability to be self sustaining and continue to grow.

I get that the glory and the history of the cup lasts forever and not many clubs can say they have that - i understand why many people would take that and say 'we may never win the cup again but we can get promoted again' But for me the thought were 'if we go down we may never come back up again' - with the gap between the wealth in the Prem and the Chamopinship continuing to grow and the cost of wages and transfer fees for good players always rising - the cost of making a club competative is increasing. Without the Prem money you are most likely going to make annual loses and stacking up debt. A club like Millwall hardly spend anything on transfers and have no big name players you can imagine are on top money but apparently lose 100k a week. If Millwalls modest squad is losing the club 5m a year you can see how difficult it is financially in the long term.

It's obviously great we won the FA Cup but if it was a choice between survival and cup, i just think the clubs financial health relies on Prem money as our small crowds who only pay rock bottom prices will never be able to sustain us at a decent level. If we had to start living soley off gate reciepts we'd have to cut investment drastically in the squad and results would probably suffer and as your results suffer the crowd shrinks and you can easily find yourself in a downward spiral. Thankfully we've had the parachute payments, the Yanic sale to soften the blow so the harsh financial realities of relegation haven't been felt to their full extent yet. Hopefully the new owners will keep us ticking over but in modern football the money is so big at the top and is the best way to safeguard the clubs future.

If you said relegation battle getting beat most weeks in the Prem vs the FA Cup glory, you'd obviously pick the glory if that was all the was to it. But the reality of the finances of survival vs relegation is something that i found really scary and couldn't look past. I imagine that is quite an unpopular view but that's me.
 
Financial sustainability and competing in the top league is a very metaphorical and subjectively defined type of success, which for a club of Wigan's size and stature regardless of investment is always going to be a finite experience - relegation from the Premier League was unfortunately inevitable and it is quite astonishing that we survived for so long when you consider the budget and the 'size' of teams mired in the Championship in comparison.

Surely, the very core foundation of any and all sporting endeavours - along with participation - is to stand tall above the rest as a champion. As cliched as it might sound, you don't dream of being a part of a financially stable sporting franchise as a kid. That's not what people dedicate their entire lives into sport for, and winning a major trophy is surely is a bigger prize to strive for than the rather mediocre and underwhelming platitude of finishing 17th in the first division of a particular sporting pyramid

Winning the FA Cup is something tangible you can point to that physically defines a team's success, whereas in my opinion a mid-table position (or really anything other than winning the league/promotion) is forgettable and only so impressive for so long.

Wigan have no realistic chances of winning the Premier League - ever, and the chances of making the Champions League are equally as slim, so winning the FA Cup is really the next best thing, and surely will forever remain the club's crowning achievement, all things considered. If it was realistic that Wigan could've attacked the top five of the league to become one of the league's so called powerhouses then I could understand why people would be upset that we sacrificed the cup for it. But we wouldn't have - we'd still have been stuck in the bottom half like we always were, and there is a ceiling on how much success Wigan can ever achieve at the level as a town club. How many towns have we seen regularly competing amongst the top six of the Premier League in the modern era of football? None - even Leicester's title win was a remarkable, million-to-one shot that they will almost certainly never repeat and they're a major city club.

People don't really get involved with competitive sports to finish 17th, and financial 'success' and 'sustainability' are really only pointless buzz words used to keep a business owner happy and content until they've had enough with their play thing and move on to the next business venture.

That pressure to be at the highest level at all costs is dangerous, and being hell bent on Premier League football might actually be a more costly financial strategy for a club like Wigan's size rather than actually accepting that we don't really belong in the Premier League and adapting to it. Portsmouth's is a classic example of that.

Blackburn - a club not too much 'bigger' than Wigan in terms of support and infrastructure, won the Premier League only to be relegated soon after, and I'm sure the same will eventually happen to Burnley no matter how successful they are at the moment because it's just the way it goes.

How much enjoyment as fans do we really get from the team being financial successful anyway? It's good for the people making money for it, but surely the main source of enjoyment for fans is on the pitch success rather than the club's financial profitability.

We're still a financial success and a sustainable club despite three relegations in five years anyway, it's not as if we plummeted into non-league football straight after winning the Cup. There's nothing to suggest that we're headed that way either. I'd rather have us be financially stable (as we are now) and have the cup over being marginally more stable without the cup.
 
As supporters of a football club, I don't see how anyone can lodge a viable argument against that Lincs and I for one wouldn't want to.
Very well put!
 
Financial

We're still a financial success and a sustainable club despite three relegations in five years anyway, it's not as if we plummeted into non-league football straight after winning the Cup. There's nothing to suggest that we're headed that way either. I'd rather have us be financially stable (as we are now) and have the cup over being marginally more stable without the cup.

The thing is the question of cup or survival is easier to say in hindsight now we have new owners coming in, we spent quite a lot of money over the last 4 or 5 years, the Championship money has increased significantly and we've had 2 promotions. But when we all originally asked ourselves this hypothetical questions no one knew what the future held and when i looked at the cost of relegation and the risks I thought the Whelan family wouldn't keep funding us long term and i didn't think anyone would buy us outside of the Prem. Without the Prem money or a benefactor coving the costs our crowds wouldn't cover I feared where it could all end up.

I don't think we've seen the full financial consequnces of relegation hit us yet due to parachute payments, but if we weren't on the verge of a take over or didn't manager to bounce straight back to the Championship I think we'd have started to really feel the pinch. Thankfully that hasn't bit us as hard as it could and hopefully it never will it certainly could've gone a lot worse than it has.

I'm not actually that bothered about being in the Premier League in many ways, I have hardly watch a Prem game since we went down as i just don't care about any league that doesn't involve us. If the money was the same at any level I'd be absolutely fine going down as I enjoy winning most weeks in a lower league much more than losing most weeks in a higher one. But I want to ensure i have a club to support and i worry long term about our sustainability without the Prem money. Maybe others think it'll never come to that but you look at how football is going, the gaps in wealth between the leagues and the cost of running a club can only go up and there will come a point for many clubs where the sums just wont add up. I don't want that to be us.
 
The thing is the question of cup or survival is easier to say in hindsight now we have new owners coming in, we spent quite a lot of money over the last 4 or 5 years, the Championship money has increased significantly and we've had 2 promotions. But when we all originally asked ourselves this hypothetical questions no one knew what the future held and when i looked at the cost of relegation and the risks I thought the Whelan family wouldn't keep funding us long term and i didn't think anyone would buy us outside of the Prem. Without the Prem money or a benefactor coving the costs our crowds wouldn't cover I feared where it could all end up.

I don't think we've seen the full financial consequnces of relegation hit us yet due to parachute payments, but if we weren't on the verge of a take over or didn't manager to bounce straight back to the Championship I think we'd have started to really feel the pinch. Thankfully that hasn't bit us as hard as it could and hopefully it never will it certainly could've gone a lot worse than it has.

I'm not actually that bothered about being in the Premier League in many ways, I have hardly watch a Prem game since we went down as i just don't care about any league that doesn't involve us. If the money was the same at any level I'd be absolutely fine going down as I enjoy winning most weeks in a lower league much more than losing most weeks in a higher one. But I want to ensure i have a club to support and i worry long term about our sustainability without the Prem money. Maybe others think it'll never come to that but you look at how football is going, the gaps in wealth between the leagues and the cost of running a club can only go up and there will come a point for many clubs where the sums just wont add up. I don't want that to be us.

I entirely agree and you raise a lot of really valid points, we are quite lucky to have bounced back twice now and you're right about being fortunate enough to get the new owners, since it's quite unusual for foreign business magnets to want to invest in a League One club - but I think winning the FA Cup really helped us with that, and announced us once and for all on the global stage since the cup final is incredibly well known around the world. I imagine the investors see that as a major coup and it might just have persuaded them to take the plunge but who really knows.

It's an interesting debate, and one with no real right answer - but hopefully the future is bright for this club both financially and in terms of on the pitch success!
 
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As supporters of a football club, I don't see how anyone can lodge a viable argument against that Lincs and I for one wouldn't want to.
Very well put!

Thanks - but King's argument is just as viable and valid as mine and a very worthy argument too - it's an interesting discussion and one I can't imagine many Latics fans thought they'd be able to have just a few years ago. Shows how successful we've been and how far this club has come!
 
Both sides have valid points, but one takes the viewpoint of someone running the club, and the other is a fans perspective. In this particular topic, the romance of the cup makes it an argument only the fans perspective can win, in my view at least.

Those that actually run the club, can view it differently and act accordingly if they desire. They know that there are fans who will always be there whatever situation the club finds itself in, and I am one of those. I already never think about the about the 4 relegations I have experienced my lifetime, but I will never stop remembering winning the cup.
 
Hopefully the new owners will safeguard our future and lead us back to the Prem riches one day so it will be that we didn't have to pick between the cup and stability financailly and will end up with both.
 
Financial sustainability and competing in the top league is a very metaphorical and subjectively defined type of success, which for a club of Wigan's size and stature regardless of investment is always going to be a finite experience - relegation from the Premier League was unfortunately inevitable and it is quite astonishing that we survived for so long when you consider the budget and the 'size' of teams mired in the Championship in comparison.

so your seying it had nowt to do with are setup, are manegers, are wigan determinateon to show the big boys that we were heer to stay. sometimes teams are bigger than there bugets suggest.

Surely, the very core foundation of any and all sporting endeavours - along with participation - is to stand tall above the rest as a champion. As cliched as it might sound, you don't dream of being a part of a financially stable sporting franchise as a kid. That's not what people dedicate their entire lives into sport for, and winning a major trophy is surely is a bigger prize to strive for than the rather mediocre and underwhelming platitude of finishing 17th in the first division of a particular sporting pyramid

what a crock of cliched crap. so a kid wants to fly rockets. he leaves school and joins rocket club inc. dont need to get gcses, degree, pilots lisence, and all the bits that go with it.

kids mite dream of pleying for the utds and citys of this world but to get there they need a club that has pedegree in its training, its academey, its facilitys, its ethos. if we can buuild and develop that in are club then kids will dream of doing there aprentiship with us hoping to move on to the big stuff. good for them and good for us.

Winning the FA Cup is something tangible you can point to that physically defines a team's success, whereas in my opinion a mid-table position (or really anything other than winning the league/promotion) is forgettable and only so impressive for so long.

your rite. maloneys goal against utd were rubbish. the arsenal comeback all forgoten, beeting the top 6 teems in the prem in the last 10 games of the seeson. all gone. were we even in the prem at all.

Wigan have no realistic chances of winning the Premier League - ever, and the chances of making the Champions League are equally as slim, so winning the FA Cup is really the next best thing, and surely will forever remain the club's crowning achievement, all things considered.

oh aye. theres ambiteon for ya. they laffed at DW when he bought the club and said he were going to take us to the prem. not only that but we won the fa cup as well. oh. you rember that bit.

If it was realistic that Wigan could've attacked the top five of the league to become one of the league's so called powerhouses then I could understand why people would be upset that we sacrificed the cup for it. But we wouldn't have - we'd still have been stuck in the bottom half like we always were, and there is a ceiling on how much success Wigan can ever achieve at the level as a town club. How many towns have we seen regularly competing amongst the top six of the Premier League in the modern era of football? None - even Leicester's title win was a remarkable, million-to-one shot that they will almost certainly never repeat and they're a major city club.

its been sed before. the size of the town has nowt to do with it when in the prem. the prem and tv money is enogh to keep any club sustaned. you could pley to 5000 a week and it wouldnt matter with the extra cash swilling around. its then down to how the club is run and managed.

People don't really get involved with competitive sports to finish 17th, and financial 'success' and 'sustainability' are really only pointless buzz words used to keep a business owner happy and content until they've had enough with their play thing and move on to the next business venture.

so this play thing that these chinese investers have just chucked the best part of £22milleon at is just that eh. a pley thing. there quite happy to waste there money and time on sommart they dont beleve will cut the mustard. i can just heer the conversateon now over some luverly peking duck. "well that wigan buy was a blast and we only lost £22milleon. fancy chucking all in for a nfl teem in the US"

That pressure to be at the highest level at all costs is dangerous, and being hell bent on Premier League football might actually be a more costly financial strategy for a club like Wigan's size rather than actually accepting that we don't really belong in the Premier League and adapting to it. Portsmouth's is a classic example of that.

rubbish. any teem that scores enogh points and pleys well enogh to get into the top 2 in the champeonship deserves to be in the prem. on there own merits. what was it you sed erlier about kids dreeming of playing for the markee teems and not us. so its ok for that to happen but not ok for teems like wigan not to aspire to get back to the top table. how dare you sey we dont belong there.

Blackburn - a club not too much 'bigger' than Wigan in terms of support and infrastructure, won the Premier League only to be relegated soon after, and I'm sure the same will eventually happen to Burnley no matter how successful they are at the moment because it's just the way it goes.

clubs downfalls are mainly throgh poor mangement and pleyer buying. not everyone is the same you no.

How much enjoyment as fans do we really get from the team being financial successful anyway? It's good for the people making money for it, but surely the main source of enjoyment for fans is on the pitch success rather than the club's financial profitability.

We're still a financial success and a sustainable club despite three relegations in five years anyway, it's not as if we plummeted into non-league football straight after winning the Cup. There's nothing to suggest that we're headed that way either. I'd rather have us be financially stable (as we are now) and have the cup over being marginally more stable without the cup.

so if youve no ambiteon for the club to go up through the tables and back to the prem why bother watching us. thats like watching us set are teem out week in week out to not lose. sounds riveting that does.
 
Financial sustainability and competing in the top league is a very metaphorical and subjectively defined type of success, which for a club of Wigan's size and stature regardless of investment is always going to be a finite experience - relegation from the Premier League was unfortunately inevitable and it is quite astonishing that we survived for so long when you consider the budget and the 'size' of teams mired in the Championship in comparison.

Surely, the very core foundation of any and all sporting endeavours - along with participation - is to stand tall above the rest as a champion. As cliched as it might sound, you don't dream of being a part of a financially stable sporting franchise as a kid. That's not what people dedicate their entire lives into sport for, and winning a major trophy is surely is a bigger prize to strive for than the rather mediocre and underwhelming platitude of finishing 17th in the first division of a particular sporting pyramid

Winning the FA Cup is something tangible you can point to that physically defines a team's success, whereas in my opinion a mid-table position (or really anything other than winning the league/promotion) is forgettable and only so impressive for so long.

Wigan have no realistic chances of winning the Premier League - ever, and the chances of making the Champions League are equally as slim, so winning the FA Cup is really the next best thing, and surely will forever remain the club's crowning achievement, all things considered. If it was realistic that Wigan could've attacked the top five of the league to become one of the league's so called powerhouses then I could understand why people would be upset that we sacrificed the cup for it. But we wouldn't have - we'd still have been stuck in the bottom half like we always were, and there is a ceiling on how much success Wigan can ever achieve at the level as a town club. How many towns have we seen regularly competing amongst the top six of the Premier League in the modern era of football? None - even Leicester's title win was a remarkable, million-to-one shot that they will almost certainly never repeat and they're a major city club.

People don't really get involved with competitive sports to finish 17th, and financial 'success' and 'sustainability' are really only pointless buzz words used to keep a business owner happy and content until they've had enough with their play thing and move on to the next business venture.

That pressure to be at the highest level at all costs is dangerous, and being hell bent on Premier League football might actually be a more costly financial strategy for a club like Wigan's size rather than actually accepting that we don't really belong in the Premier League and adapting to it. Portsmouth's is a classic example of that.

Blackburn - a club not too much 'bigger' than Wigan in terms of support and infrastructure, won the Premier League only to be relegated soon after, and I'm sure the same will eventually happen to Burnley no matter how successful they are at the moment because it's just the way it goes.

How much enjoyment as fans do we really get from the team being financial successful anyway? It's good for the people making money for it, but surely the main source of enjoyment for fans is on the pitch success rather than the club's financial profitability.

We're still a financial success and a sustainable club despite three relegations in five years anyway, it's not as if we plummeted into non-league football straight after winning the Cup. There's nothing to suggest that we're headed that way either. I'd rather have us be financially stable (as we are now) and have the cup over being marginally more stable without the cup.
The sole reason we’ve been a “financial success” for the last few years are parachute payments, you’re in for a shock when the next set of accounts are realised. As for “Wigan having no chance of winning the Premier League” I wonder what Leicester City fans would say to that? Or Wolves fans now they have billions behind them? Or Man City fans when they were in the doldrums? What a hypocrite you are banging on about me being negative then coming up with rubbish like that.
 
By 'eck Lincs ........... some folk seem to have issues with your very reasonable & considered post.

Not sure about C_Latic, but Brick is obviously doing his usual trick of choosing to interpret what's been written in a totally different way than was (presumably) intended. For example - I presume you meant that our finishing positions in the Prem were easily forgotten......... in fact, that's more or less what you wrote. Brick however chooses to go on about specific games, or even further from the point, specific events in specific games, as if this in some way is a suitable counter-argument to the point you were making.

I (like you, I'm sure) loved some of those Prem games. Some of the highlights from those games gave me memories I shall cherish. However, "that day" is one of the best in my life, and probably always will be.

UTFT.
 
By 'eck Lincs ........... some folk seem to have issues with your very reasonable & considered post.

just goes to show how peeple see things diferently then. i didnt think it were reasonable or considered. it smacked of ivory tower speak.

Not sure about C_Latic, but Brick is obviously doing his usual trick of choosing to interpret what's been written in a totally different way than was (presumably) intended.

usual trick? whats that about then. i can only reed whats put in front of me. and what this presumably suposed to mean.

For example - I presume you meant that our finishing positions in the Prem were easily forgotten......... in fact, that's more or less what you wrote.

oh i get it. now with this new layout of the forum we need to go on a mind reeding coarse so we can see what posters are presuming not what there riting.

Brick however chooses to go on about specific games, or even further from the point, specific events in specific games, as if this in some way is a suitable counter-argument to the point you were making.

brick menteoned specific games as examples of the grate times we had in the prem. was missing the shef wed game with the unsworth pen, the stoke game with the last min winner, finishing 10th in are 1st seeson ect ect ect what you wanted me to rite. there were no need to make the point. the argument were flawed in the 1st place.

I (like you, I'm sure) loved some of those Prem games. Some of the highlights from those games gave me memories I shall cherish. However, "that day" is one of the best in my life, and probably always will be.

but are you sure he loved some of those prem games. or are you presuming but you said it to make sure he nos you no or thinks you no or just presumes it.

must be hard all this mind reeding stuff
 
Brick ....... you just need to read what's written that's all. If you wish - or feel that it's necessary - to twist - sorry, interpret - what the poster means, that that's fine .................. but when it's as clear as day, I'd argue that it's a little unnecessary.

By the way, I missed the Unsworth pen at Sheff Wed too ............. as I suspect did everyone else.
:yes:
 
By 'eck Lincs ........... some folk seem to have issues with your very reasonable & considered post.

Not sure about C_Latic, but Brick is obviously doing his usual trick of choosing to interpret what's been written in a totally different way than was (presumably) intended. For example - I presume you meant that our finishing positions in the Prem were easily forgotten......... in fact, that's more or less what you wrote. Brick however chooses to go on about specific games, or even further from the point, specific events in specific games, as if this in some way is a suitable counter-argument to the point you were making.

I (like you, I'm sure) loved some of those Prem games. Some of the highlights from those games gave me memories I shall cherish. However, "that day" is one of the best in my life, and probably always will be.

UTFT.

I certainly did love every moment of it Moonay, - the Premier League years were a joy to behold and gave us all so many incredible memories that will be with us forever.

As for the very weird and uncalled for temper tantrums from the dynamic duo above, I really couldn't tell you what's got them so upset so I can only really reply with...:ROFLMAO:
 
Brick ....... you just need to read what's written that's all. If you wish - or feel that it's necessary - to twist - sorry, interpret - what the poster means, that that's fine .................. but when it's as clear as day, I'd argue that it's a little unnecessary.

By the way, I missed the Unsworth pen at Sheff Wed too ............. as I suspect did everyone else.
:yes:

best pen of the seeson for me. i new it were crucial especially after roony missed that sitter for us. grate day as we all sat there in are shiney red replica tops.

and you call yourself a true suporter. :whist:
 
I certainly did love every moment of it Moonay, - the Premier League years were a joy to behold and gave us all so many incredible memories that will be with us forever.

As for the very weird and uncalled for temper tantrums from the dynamic duo above, I really couldn't tell you what's got them so upset so I can only really reply with...:ROFLMAO:


hahahahahahahahahahahaha

temper tantrums? you wuldnt recognise a debate if it smacked you in the nuts lincs.

anyway pal no hard feelings. it is what it is. moonay reely shuld no better by the way.
 
The sole reason we’ve been a “financial success” for the last few years are parachute payments, you’re in for a shock when the next set of accounts are realised. As for “Wigan having no chance of winning the Premier League” I wonder what Leicester City fans would say to that? Or Wolves fans now they have billions behind them? Or Man City fans when they were in the doldrums? What a hypocrite you are banging on about me being negative then coming up with rubbish like that.

1.) I *explicitly* stated that Wigan have no realistic chance of winning the Premier League.

2.) Leicester are a city club - I *explicitly* stated this.

3.) Wolves are a city club, and we don't have billions behind us.

4.) Man City are - you guessed it - a city club effectively state funded by one of the world's richest countries. Their plight is irrelevant, and their ceiling is obviously significantly higher by virtue of being in one of the UK's biggest cities rather than a town.

I don't think it's negative to say that a multi-billionaire isn't going to come along and make Wigan Athletic the only globally-reaching sporting juggernaut on the planet to play in a town.