Pro Life vs Pro Choice | Vital Football

Pro Life vs Pro Choice

Stephen Jay Hawkings

Stephen Jay Hawkings

Vital Football Legend
Just to continue on a bit from the politics thread, I'll start a new one about this topic as there is an upcoming referendum on abortion here in Ireland.

I came across this today which made me sick. Pro-life posters erected near a national school in Dublin, with religious phrases and horrific imagery. I really hope something has been done about it as that is utterly disgusting behaviour to expose children to that imagery in the name of their ridiculous argument.

Here's the link, warning, it's graphic. Sick bastards.

https://lovindublin.com/dublin/graphic-anti-choice-posters
 
It's the last desperate bid of an old ideology, SJH.

Yes, it's disgusting they have sunk so low, but it means they're losing, so celebrate.
 
Good point Heath, I do get blinded in my rage sometimes.

What did shock me a year or 2 ago was coming across a pro-life march through the streets, I was amazed at how many young people were on that side, it was quite disturbing. But we seem to live in the ultimate age of brainwashing so I shouldn't be surprised.
 
P.S For anyone here that may have a different opinion on the overall matter (I know we had a good debate with BBJ in the politics thread, and there may be other religious folk here too) I am in no way lumping you in with those people in the original post. Please feel free to express any opinions here
 
Sick.

no other words for it.

have to bang my head against the wall when it comes to this debate, I have to be honest. The Rees Mogg line that abortion shouldn't be allowed even for women who have been raped disgusts me.

Hopefully heathfield is right, those sick sods are losing the battle and so going for these shocking tactics.
 
They would argue that abortion is murder, not a contraceptive and people should be aware of the consequences.

Personally, I believe that we are all responsible for our own actions and that I'm not qualified to dictate the morality of your decision making.

Still, there is merit to their argument and it should be accepted rather then dismissing it and those who believe it.
 
I think my opinion on this has changed a fair bit over the years. I'm still pro choice but since having children myself and knowing what a foetus looks like through the pregnancy, i'm finding it more difficult and i'm a lot less liberal about it. I doubt i'll ever swing fully but i'm definitely shifting.

It's a really, really last resort for me, but then, i'm not the one carrying the baby for 9 months under whatever circumstance it is that has led to the decision.
 
lewis1980 - 9/2/2018 02:37

, but then, i'm not the one carrying the baby for 9 months under whatever circumstance it is that has led to the decision.
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:1: :1: :1:

Exactly. Whatever the moral arguments, this has been men deciding what happens to women's bodies for far too long.

Let them decide, not us.
 
HeathfieldRoad1874 - 9/2/2018 09:19

lewis1980 - 9/2/2018 02:37

, but then, i'm not the one carrying the baby for 9 months under whatever circumstance it is that has led to the decision.
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:1: :1: :1:

Exactly. Whatever the moral arguments, this has been men deciding what happens to women's bodies for far too long.

Let them decide, not us.
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Just to be clear about this though, it's n ot a patriachi thing to be pro-life, there are pleanty of women, femanists included, that are pro-life.

 
I think the split of opinion of women in the US is 50/50. And it's pretty obvious to me the the decision itself has significant impact on the woman and the man who participated in the conception.

It takes two to tango, so a reasoned discussions and consensus between the two is always preferable. When there's a law that allows there to be that discussion.

As for the patriarchy. Women are the biggest vote share, so for governance and law making, they have the power to make significant change. If they want it of course. So I've never brought into that ideology anyway. Nor into the silencing of men on any subject that involves women.

I'm guessing there's also a split on this between feminists and the modern 3rd wave feminists who spread so much misinformation too.

Any decision has implications on society as a whole. We're symbiotic, we have daughters, mothers, grandmothers, sisters and aunties. So of course man's opinion is necessary in the debate.
 
I'm pro choice, without a doubt. Laws which prevent abortion in the case of rape or incest are so totally misguided it is beyond belief that they exist at all.

Pro choice should absolutely not equal lifestyle choice, however, and there should certainly be a cut-off date - I believe it is 24 weeks in the UK, apart from exceptional cases where the mother's life is at risk, or there is a serious risk of the foetus being born with a severe disability. Any 'deadline' of this sort will always be arbitrary, but at least offers safeguards for all parties.

Women (and men, it goes without saying) should take responsibility for the choices they have made and actions they have taken. But I would certainly agree with Heath that (certainly in the case of Ireland) it has been men, in the shape of the Catholic church, deciding what happens to women's bodies.

I wonder how people feel about ending a life at the other end - withdrawal of treatment for long-term sufferers of cancer, for instance, or assisted suicide/euthanasia. Either way, humans are making decisions over the life or death of another human being, something not generally tolerated in 'civilised society'.

I also wonder how many pro lifers (especially in America) also support capital punishment?
 
This kind of campaigning is way over the top and is, I believe, counter-productive. I don't think either that it's representative of how the majority on the pro-life side of the discussion would want to present their case. And, as with the Brexit debate in the UK, there are headbangers on both sides of the argument.
This referendum to remove the constitutional ban on abortion is by no means a done deal. I think it will pass but I'd be surprised if it were by very much.
And if it passes, then the legislation has to get through the Dail. Of course, if it's the "will of the people" (where have I heard that before? :69:) then our esteemed public representatives may feel they have to accede. However, there are many who might want to get the "rules" on abortion out of the constitution (I've never myself felt it belonged there as it provided a cop-out for our TDs and senators) but who might baulk at what they see as being too "liberal" a regime.
So it'll depend on the proposed legislation. Right now, the recommendation is that unrestricted abortion ought to be allowed up to 12 weeks. I suspect that this won't fly. I guess that a few weeks will be shaved off that.
I think most people here know my own position. I'm pro-life. I think that in the case of rape or incest then the mother ought to have the choice of a termination: likewise, if her health or life is at risk; and, finally, if the unborn is not going to live outside the womb.
I've said before I don't think there is any other good reason for abortion.
 
Regardless og which side of the fence you sit on, only the most callous of people would think that there was ever a good reason for abortion, there are surely only bad but acceptable ones. But that's just me being picky about semantics.


 
I am a bit conflicted about this , speaking as someone who refused to have 10 frozen eggs destroyed , but on the other hand I understand completely that there are circumstances where a termination is necessary or wanted.

The likes of Rees-Mogg would even refuse an abortion if a father raped his daughter for instance and I do recoil at that view.
 
It depends on how much you value human life, Ian. I see us as just another species along with thousands of others. Nobody mourns when a mouse dies, yet we are of the same lineage.

Men have been in charge, through governments or Churches, of these decisions. Women haven't had a true say. Until we get a 50/50 split in Parliaments around the world, and the church butts out, then women have not had a true say on the matter.

I never for one moment thought that all women are pro choice, but that's not the point. Through christian teachings we have diminished the role of women in society, and that needs to be addressed.
 
HeathfieldRoad1874 - 9/2/2018 12:52

It depends on how much you value human life, Ian. I see us as just another species along with thousands of others. Nobody mourns when a mouse dies, yet we are of the same lineage.
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Whether it bee from learned morals or though the need for self preservation, most mamalian species have developed some form of moral attachement to members of their own species, is that something you feel humans have evolved beyond?

 
No, they haven't, as shown by the RIP thread on VV. Much of that is down to the faith system that has moulded our society. Even those that aren't religious are still influenced, because what the Bible said was bad has trickled down into laws and standards.

Look at societies that have avoided the major religions, and you will see many differing views on how life is perceived, and coincidentally, how women are treated.

At the end of the day we are all just a bunch of atoms that are held together for the briefest time. Within the magnitude of the Universe as we know it, we are so insignificant.
 
Villan Of The North - 9/2/2018 20:20

Regardless og which side of the fence you sit on, only the most callous of people would think that there was ever a good reason for abortion, there are surely only bad but acceptable ones. But that's just me being picky about semantics.
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I'm pro-choice but I agree with you.
 
If I had to come down on one side I would be pro life but...... that is for me! I was in a situation with my youngest where I was told to abort. No way I was. He is a perfectly healthy happy young man todat. The backdrop story to it doesn't matter.

However being pro life does not mean I would judge anyone who chose to have an abortion. It's not my business too.

There is certain circumstances where there shouldn't eben be a debate on it. Rape, incest, mother or child quality or life threatened or won't be one and the like.

It's down to the woman. I mean this with no disrespect guys however it is the woman who carries and gives birth and it's her choice

As for JRM I cannot believe how many think he will be an awesome pm and find him so cute. Yes you read that right. As a reader of mumsnet and gransnet forums it is shockingly true that many women find him so traditionally old fashioned and adorable. I am like wtf!!!
 
HeathfieldRoad1874 - 9/2/2018 13:13



At the end of the day we are all just a bunch of atoms that are held together for the briefest time. Within the magnitude of the Universe as we know it, we are so insignificant.
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And that's part of what makes us so wonderfull and special, we, as far as current knowledge (not hypothesese) unique in the universe as fully sentient beings. Or smallness combined with our uniqueness is what makes us both insignificant and perhaps the most significant thing in the universe all at the same time.


 
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