Pro life or pro choice?

  • Thread starter Villan Of The North
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Villan Of The North

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I know this is a sensitive subject for some and definitely emotive for most of us so if anyone objects, just drop me a PM and I'll delete the entire thread or alert it and another member of the alerts team can evaluate and decide.

That said, it's a good and important debate to have, so a few ground rules. 1. Show respect to other posters, even if you vehemently disagree with them. 2. Try not to be too frivolous, it'll just piss people off in what could already be a heated debate. 3. No religious arguments, if you have religious beliefs they are bound to partially form your views but your religious arguments only apply to those that share your religious conviction. 4. Try to back up your viewpoint with an explanation.

I decided to raise this subject after seeing the video below on Facebook. Sadly the guy making the argument is a bit of a clown but that does not (or at least should not) detract from his argument.

My personal standpoint: I'm against abortion for reasons similar to those in the video but with a few caveats and an explanation. The argument for pro choice has often been based on when a foetus is viable to be born and survive, the problem with that argument is that it varies drastically from one circumstance to the next and medical improvements have reduced the age of viability significantly, who is to say how that will change in the future? The main caveat to my standpoint is the health of the mother, if there is s choice to be made between the life of the child and the life/health (mental health can be included in this) of the mother then it is the mother's choice to make, not mine or anyone else's (assuming the mother is compus mentus). The other caveat for me is rape, when it is still the choice of the mother, although I would like to think that the child could be carried to term and then adopted away.......but it's still a case of mental health for the mother.

Anyway, here is the video:-

[youtube=NGKKOePOdy0]

 
I think if people want an abortion, they should be allowed to have one.

We don't live in a perfect world. And giving birth to an unwanted baby just seems plain wrong to me.
 
If every baby was aborted due to ''mistakes'' or things not being perfect for them then mankind imo would have died out by now and you me and everyone you know go find out which one of us was planned and there parents having in place ready like a little perfect world awaiting them,,,,,,,you won't find that cos life is all about survival and if you do an action there must be a responsibility to that action, creating a life should be seen as an honour and if that person/couple am not yet ready or feel in the wrong kind of circumstances then TOUGH do your job and what we am here to do and look after that kid as you was or better in some circumstances.

My strong views and feelings on this.
 
It's about choice though Clive.

Most people would find out about a mistake, weigh it up, figure out they can bring up a baby and go with it....

But for some bringing up a baby is impossible. They may have taken all precautions in terms of contraception but still ended up pregnant, and the thought of bring a baby into a violent or debt ridden family well sometimes I just don't think its the right thing to do.
 
DeanoVilla - 23/1/2015 11:34

I think if people want an abortion, they should be allowed to have one.

We don't live in a perfect world. And giving birth to an unwanted baby just seems plain wrong to me.
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Did you watch the film? Is it not more wrong to kill a child than to bring a child into the world that the mother does not want? And just because the mother does not want the child, it does not mean that it's unwanted, there are many couples waiting for a child to adopt.
 
DeanoVilla - 23/1/2015 11:45

It's about choice though Clive.

Most people would find out about a mistake, weigh it up, figure out they can bring up a baby and go with it....

But for some bringing up a baby is impossible. They may have taken all precautions in terms of contraception but still ended up pregnant, and the thought of bring a baby into a violent or debt ridden family well sometimes I just don't think its the right thing to do.
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There is still a choice, adoption. When does a person's choice remove the rights of another human to be able to live?
 
I can't watch the film at the moment mate, as I'm at work. I just think the world is far from perfect and sometimes tough decisions need to be made.

Obviously going through it at the moment myself with Nat being 6 months pregnant and I could never in a million years ever imagine wanting to not have this baby.

But just a few scenarios......

1) Couple gets pregnant. Father passes away. Woman may not feel she can cope or want to cope on her own. Some women may want the child as a reminder of the father... but some may not want that reminder.

2) Couple are both debt ridden/bankrupt, can't afford to feed themselves let alone a child..... but why shouldn't they have sex still? They use rubbers... but somehow it still happens, the woman gets pregnant.... should they really be forced to bring a baby into that environment?

3) Woman is violently raped and impregnanted by her attacker. You really wanna force this poor girl who has been through that to go through giving birth to the baby?

4) Couple, planning a family get pregnant... wonderful... but 2 weeks later they both lose their jobs..... should they be forced to proceed? Or should they be allowed to concentrate on getting their careers and lives back on track before trying again?


Yes it's emotive... and yes I don't agree with just aborting willy nilly coz it doesn't take your fancy, but there are valid reasons in my book
 
I have to say imho there is no excuse whatsoever, some of my cousens was pregnant when 17 no job no home nothing and a couple of them the chaps pizzed off but they still brought them kids up and they am now thriving and happy, not having loads of stuff or debt or even if they live in a violent world they can move away from it, if they have illness they can see about family helping or taking care of the child or worst case scenario adoption to couples who always wanted a child but couldn't have one,

Since the dawn of mankind we have survived by reproducing and coping with the difficult demands, if we had a choice back then we might not be here today imo so it should be nature that decides not mankind dude.
 
Now that is a different circumstance to what i have thought about Deano dude, but if om honest whatever i say would struggle to be correct dude cos that is a circumstance that is hard to imagine, but i still would not get rid of the baby cos i just don't believe in it mar mate, maybe adoption etc but tough to imagine tbh
 
I take the point about not being able to watch the film but you could have read my comments :5:

I agree with the woman having a choice when it comes to rape and when it comes to matters of health/mental health, when, of course, decisions should be informed by qualified medical and mental health personnel.

As far as finances are concerned, we live in a society where no child should be left in poverty and the only reason that some are is bad choices from the parents, social services are there for a reason and when used properly, they do work. The biggest issue with poverty is bad choices made by the parents based on lack of education, selfish choices and a lack of understanding that they can actually get help. Of course, this assumes that you don't include lack of PS4 and lack of 3D TV as being a measure of poverty......it seems that many do.

 
Ok, well that is probably the worst scenario I could think of, but the point I'm trying to get across is VOTN and yourself seem to be very black & white on the subject and don't believe you should ever terminate another human life.... but if you're going to be so black and white you'd have to force your missus to go ahead and have the baby in that circumstance, and I for one could not be that cruel to the woman I love.

I feel bloody sorry for Nat at the moment, seeing how much hard work being pregnant is ad knowing whats to come! I feel bad for me putting her through it. How could I put her through it if she'd been raped? Just couldn't. Sorry no way.

So I'm just trying to say, it's not black & white... there are areas of grey and everyones grey areas differ.
 
That is probably the most grey area on this subject and debate we could probably imagine or try to ay, but agree what they have to go through in pregnancy and the birth is unreal, makes you feel guilty don't it well i did like, hope all is well Deano with your little bun in the oven ''mini Deano'' should be lucky though and take after your mrs side for looks cos feck me yam...... lol ;)
 
Villan Of The North - 23/1/2015 11:04

I take the point about not being able to watch the film but you could have read my comments :5:
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lol sorry mate, I skim read and missed the bit about caveats...

But then later you did say "When does a person's choice remove the rights of another human to be able to live?"

implying that we should never be able to choose that.

Ok, so we agree on certain caveats then... those are what I call the grey areas... but not everyone is the same and everyones grey areas are different. What seems terrible and disasterous to one person, to another person may just be "oh get over it pull your socks up and carry on"
 
I'd add to the list Deano a scan shows the child has a server disability that will not only impact on the parents lives but also result in the child have absolutely no quality of life!
 
Yeah good call Skeggy. I know a couple who had an abortion due to the high chance of Downs

Again, some people would be able to cope with that, but there are some that simply couldn't. Yes there is adoption, but then some couldn't cope with giving their baby away and knowing for the rest of their lives they are out there somewhere.

 
Can we know how a severely disabled person experiences life? If the only quality of life they have ever know is the disabled condition they find themselves in then this may be perfectly acceptable to them. Regarding the parents, surely this is just one of the many risks associated with trying for children. Some years after our number 3 was born we decided to try for another, sadly this never happened and now it's too late but at the time, we discovered that, due to my wife's age, the likelihood of her becoming pregnant was less than the likely hood of any child that we did have being downs syndrome. This was a risk we acknowledged and accepted with the agreement that we would accept and love any child that we might be blessed with.

 
Some do value human life far too much, don't we. There are far too many of us ravaging this planet as it is, and without abortion this problem would have been worse. With proper contraception and abortion available to everyone many of the Worlds famines could have been avoided. All that suffering because we over value ourselves.

Extrapolating from that video, we should be saving every sperm and egg. After all, life is so precious!!!

Death is a huge part of nature, and yet we still haven't learnt to deal with it. Well, at least not in the Western world, anyway.

I think a mother should be able to terminate whenever she wants. We have Laws in place to offer protection, and these by definition have to be set, when we know that life isn't like that. In part I agree with these, but I would not be against extending the date at which an abortion could be an option.

Finally, I note it's often the men that are pro-life. Many more Women seem to be pro-choice. That is interesting.
 
For me either option is "choice". It's a highly personal subject and the only person/people that can make that call are those involved in that personal,unique situation. If people want to continue a pregnancy , fine. If they don't, then it's their choice , also fine* (*there will no doubt be questions about those aborted for being the "wrong sex" or "ginger" but I'm talking about genuine reasons/decisions.

 
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