Post Brexit (n/g) | Page 6 | Vital Football

Post Brexit (n/g)

US and Canada are two independent states in the sense that you talk about them. They are part of a three-way agreement with Mexico which is very lightly worn compared to the EU. Nevertheless, Canadian independence is hugely circumscribed by the fact that it is dependent on US markets for its exports. It has to meet US specs (usually lighter than Canadian ones) both on products and how they are produced if it wants to sell into that market. Its motor industry is functionally integrated into a North American motor industry to which it contributes bits which go back and forth across borders at various stages of manufacture. And while the Bank of Canada sets Canadian interest rates, it usually has to set them just above US rates or capital simply flows out of Canada to the US.

All this not only hugely circumscribes what Canada can do abroad. It also has a profound impact on life in Canada. All this is so, even though Canada is independent or, more properly, sovereign, in the way you want Britain to be. It matters that Canada is sovereign on a whole rack of issues from metric measures through abortion, guns, and health service, to going to war, but economic realities and the economic expectations of most of its people dictate that its freedom of action on a whole range of issues is hugely circumscribed. The Canadians tried to break this continental drift a couple of times -1950's trade diversion back to the UK and Commonwealth; 1980's trade diversion to Europe. The gravitational pull was just too strong, as were the upfront costs of trying.

The UK faces similar realities in its relations with the European Union. Sell into the EU market and you sell on EU terms being the most obvious example. One big difference though is that there is no big North American project. Ten, twenty, thirty years from now, it will look pretty much the same. This cannot be said of the EU, at least not in its aspirations. It wants to be more and is determined to succeed or die trying (my money is on the latter). Either way, however, it is not good news for us to be a part of it.

That's why
a) it's important to have left,
b) much more should have been done to make clear the limits of what leaving could possibly mean, and what remaining was going to entail,
and thus,
c) a complicated, fiddly, half-arsed exit has much to commend it -but, at the time, had no one except a few grown ups to speak for it

Wonder whether combine harvester sales are up in Canada`s Prairie Provinces :cowboy:
 
I'm not making any suggestions but I am saying the current situation is rubbish because those in charge of the process have and had no plan and repeatedly trim to the whims of a minority. Cuttting all ties with the EU is a fine sounding, absolutist position but it takes us nowhere. Much of what is now being objected to was never discussed in the campaign and represents routine administration and agreement with neighbours, it's nothing to do with the EU lording it over us.

The problem with allowing the ideologues to control the agenda is that they had a dream rather than a practical project. They are in so deep now that they will literally never agree to any settlement. There will always be some further withdrawal, or separation they demand and they will never be satisfied. At some point every one of them will declare the project at least partly betrayed. What the public expects and demands and expects of governments is that they make legislation and stuff work. That is what they will be judged on, not some purist pie in the sky.
Excellent summary.
 
So the Government have voted to break the law again. Northern Ireland was always going to be a problem with Brexit. It simply doesn't work for that part of the UK.But it is like a lot of things most people only care about themselves.Well this will trigger a worsening relationships with our European neighbours at very least. It could also trigger more problems in Northern and Southern Ireland .For what ?
What has Brexit achieved?
More illegal migration .
Higher prices .
Slower imports and exports .
Loss of business
Loss of valued tax paying employees
 
What has Brexit achieved?
More illegal migration

Sadly , I have to agree with you , 100,000 are expected to land in 2022 (by dinghy alone)

With 90% of arrivals being fighting-age men ,
'The Great reset' and 'Great replacement' theories are now mainstream

It will be the ethnic and cultural identity that will ultimately decide the Victor.
 
Quite incredible that this Government is breaking a Treaty it created and signed itself just a couple of years ago, having lauded it as brilliant at the time.

Apparently it was a "Remainers" treaty. If so, why? Steve Baker said it was signed under duress? Why? The Government had an 80+ seat majority (having purged most Remainers). How could they have been forced to sign it? No deal was better than a bad deal, we were told.

Embarrassing.
 
Quite incredible that this Government is breaking a Treaty it created and signed itself just a couple of years ago, having lauded it as brilliant at the time.
Apparently it was a "Remainers" treaty. If so, why? Steve Baker said it was signed under duress? Why? The Government had an 80+ seat majority (having purged most Remainers). How could they have been forced to sign it? No deal was better than a bad deal, we were told.
Embarrassing.

It was only a small part of the deal but it was the one thing that had held up the completion of Brexit for an unacceptable period of time and so some sort of halfarsed compromise had to be agreed in the short term.

I don't know but I do suspect that the UK expected the EU to have a light touch, and spot check, system of checks at the Irish sea border and it has turned out to be far from that.

Actually, if the EU was so concerned about the integrity of their single market and want to do extensive checks, they still have a further opportunity at the sea borders between the Republic of Ireland and the European mainland.

Of course, they would say that would be putting an artificial border within their union but they seem to have had no qualms about creating such an artificial border within OUR union, the UK.

I suspect that may be the basis of the legal advice obtained by the UK government.

The argument can also be backed up by the paralysis that has been caused in Stormont so in any legal proceedings the EU would have to explain how else that can be remedied.
 
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Sadly , I have to agree with you , 100,000 are expected to land in 2022 (by dinghy alone)

With 90% of arrivals being fighting-age men ,
'The Great reset' and 'Great replacement' theories are now mainstream

It will be the ethnic and cultural identity that will ultimately decide the Victor.

Much simpler and more mundane and no need to look at dud fantasies. Priti Patel taks tough and keeps on failing and her boss has no plan. A competently run Home Office and a coherent migration policy would begin to bring those numbers down.
 
It was only a small part of the deal but it was the one thing that had held up the completion of Brexit for an unacceptable period of time and so some sort of halfarsed compromise had to be agreed in the short term.

I don't know but I do suspect that the UK expected the EU to have a light touch, and spot check, system of checks at the Irish sea border and it has turned out to be far from that.

Actually, if the EU was so concerned about the integrity of their single market and want to do extensive checks, they still have a further opportunity at the sea borders between the Republic of Ireland and the European mainland.

Of course, they would say that would be putting an artificial border within their union but they seem to have had no qualms about creating such an artificial border within OUR union, the UK.

I suspect that may be the basis of the legal advice obtained by the UK government.

The argument can also be backed up by the paralysis that has been caused in Stormont so in any legal proceedings the EU would have to explain how else that can be remedied.
Doh, the EU regarded the Single Market as sacrosanct. No shit Sherlock. So amazed they stuck to it - NOT.

Nasty EU won't treat us like a member any more. Well I never. Shock.

I'd add that having the worst and most incompetent Government in my lifetime has made things worse. They want to create permanent "enemies" to shore up their support. Classic fascist playbook.
 
Doh, the EU regarded the Single Market as sacrosanct. No shit Sherlock. So amazed they stuck to it - NOT.
Nasty EU won't treat us like a member any more. Well I never. Shock.

And the UK government and the Protestant Irish regard the UK as sacrosanct. No Shit Holmes. So amazed they are sticking to it.

Nasty UK making Simon Coveney cranky. Well I never. Shock.
 
And the UK government and the Protestant Irish regard the UK as sacrosanct. No Shit Holmes. So amazed they are sticking to it.

Nasty UK making Simon Coveney cranky. Well I never. Shock.
????? Wierd.

It's a mess. You win. Own it.

I'll grant you it's far worse than a Lexit, especially with this bunch of no marks compared to 'normal' Tories.
 
Seems those taking a side cannot understand those without a side.

brexit - no matter whether one wanted it or not it is a reality. Based on that realisation the country now expects it to be implemented ASAP by the government of the day and actually make it work without any more excuses.

we have taken back control so we are supposedly sorting it all out by dealing with the main players NI, EIRE and the EU who all have their own legitimate points of views. It is their prerogative as much as our opinion is ours.

there are problems - f sort it out innit. Thats what a competent government does.

Why are people calling out the failure of government to solve these issues being called - remoaners or whatever. The emperor (this government) has no clothes.
 
There’s a bit of chicken going on on both sides with peace on the island of Ireland and the Irish government’s security budget at stake. The EU is in no mood to be flexible, figuring the balance of forces, reason and right lies on its side, even though all sorts of fudges could work. HMG is in a mess of its own making but might be just crazy/desperate enough to risk a harder border on the island. Dublin says, mess this up the pair of you, and you drop us right in it. Both sides seem to be replying, that’s a chance we’re prepared to take.
 
There’s a bit of chicken going on on both sides with peace on the island of Ireland and the Irish government’s security budget at stake. The EU is in no mood to be flexible, figuring the balance of forces, reason and right lies on its side, even though all sorts of fudges could work. HMG is in a mess of its own making but might be just crazy/desperate enough to risk a harder border on the island. Dublin says, mess this up the pair of you, and you drop us right in it. Both sides seem to be replying, that’s a chance we’re prepared to take.

But that is the whole point. The UK had the right to leave the EU, in the same way that the Republic had the right to stay in it.

But what exact compromise has the Republic been making with the protocol? Everything has stayed exactly the same for them with no interruptions to their trade with either the rest of the EU or Northern Ireland whatsoever, while at the same time trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK is being interrupted and causing delays and product shortages.

That needs to be addressed with a fair give and take on BOTH sides, not just one, as it is in both their interests. IMO that will be central to the legal argument.
 
But that is the whole point. The UK had the right to leave the EU, in the same way that the Republic had the right to stay in it.

But what exact compromise has the Republic been making with the protocol? Everything has stayed exactly the same for them with no interruptions to their trade with either the rest of the EU or Northern Ireland whatsoever, while at the same time trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK is being interrupted and causing delays and product shortages.

That needs to be addressed with a fair give and take on BOTH sides, not just one, as it is in both their interests. IMO that will be central to the legal argument.

It’s an important point, but it’s not the whole point. You say Ireland and the EU have to be reasonable and make some concessions. I agree. The EU strongly, and Ireland less certainly, say no we don’t. From its creation as the UK of GB and NI, through Churchill’s offer to give it up in return for an end to Irish neutrality, to the GFI and its acknowledgement not only that the Republic had an interest and a say in the affairs of the North but also that the waters were flowing in the direction of a United Ireland, HMG has treated NI as something less UK than the rest of the UK. That, plus facts on the ground make it hard for Britain to play the political/economic integrity argument as if NI was Wales or the IOW. As Shotshy will be swift to remind us, however, there are other facts on the ground in the North of which London and Dublin are both aware but which, I suspect, the EU is not taking seriously enough.
 
But what exact compromise has the Republic been making with the protocol? Everything has stayed exactly the same for them with no interruptions to their trade with either the rest of the EU or Northern Ireland whatsoever, while at the same time trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK is being interrupted and causing delays and product shortages.

That needs to be addressed with a fair give and take on BOTH sides, not just one, as it is in both their interests. IMO that will be central to the legal argument.

No it doesn't GBN.

The UK made a decision, so it's the UK's responsibility to manage that decision.

Ireland were just vibing along, the UK did something stupid, and now they're supposed to change how they live??

If your neighbour built an extension, something went wrong, and it pulled down your adjoining wall, you'd be pretty fucking adamant your neighbour should be the one to fix it, not you.
 
No it doesn't GBN.

The UK made a decision, so it's the UK's responsibility to manage that decision.

Ireland were just vibing along, the UK did something stupid, and now they're supposed to change how they live??

If your neighbour built an extension, something went wrong, and it pulled down your adjoining wall, you'd be pretty fucking adamant your neighbour should be the one to fix it, not you.

Especially if Ian Duncan Smith was the architect and laughingly said that he did not need time to study the extension plans fully.