Politics and football. | Page 3 | Vital Football

Politics and football.

moonay

Vital Champions League
#41
The important thing though moonay is folk aren't buying into any of this..and as such is going nowhere longterm. .
The statement or the movement? The movement, fine. The statement, I disagree ......... as do all these footballers .............. as did those in central London and the other cities the other weekend.

..... I think Joshua summed my take on all this when he inadvertently said only shop in black owned business. If you think that's the attitude to nail your colours to then go for it...I won't be..
I'm with you here. The answer to discrimination can never be more discrimination.

All lives matter and that is the best bet for equality.
Amen brother.
 

FrancosLoveChild

Vital 1st Team Regular
#42
BLM isn't left or right though. It is a movement of people who want equality. Can't really fault anyone for wanting equal rights can you?
For the majority yes, but there are extreme left and right wingers making it completely political to only serve their agenda, they only care about BLM when it suits them, and sadly most of the people eat it up and start attacking others, just look at a minority of protesters left and right causing violence in London.
 

king_dezeeuw06

Vital Football Hero
#43
When you read the posts in this thread you see EXACTLY what the issue is here.

Everyone agrees with the sentiment that black people should be treated equally, police brutality is unacceptable, racism is bad and should be tackled etc. It's a clean sweep on those fronts - everyone is united on this aspect.

The stuff cuasing arguments and the division is all the stuff muddying the waters that is trying to be packaged and bolted onto the above that people understndably don't agree with and oppose.

If we could divorce the sentiment from the BLM organisation i think we'd lose all the divisive stuff and be left with something most people could get behind and then we'd be able to get somewhere.
 

Made in Wigan

Vital Football Hero
#44
When you read the posts in this thread you see EXACTLY what the issue is here.

Everyone agrees with the sentiment that black people should be treated equally, police brutality is unacceptable, racism is bad and should be tackled etc. It's a clean sweep on those fronts - everyone is united on this aspect.

The stuff cuasing arguments and the division is all the stuff muddying the waters that is trying to be packaged and bolted onto the above that people understndably don't agree with and oppose.

If we could divorce the sentiment from the BLM organisation i think we'd lose all the divisive stuff and be left with something most people could get behind and then we'd be able to get somewhere.
Yep, exactly. Unfortunately as I said earlier, too many don’t understand the difference and as a consequence no debate can be had. The media won’t help as they are too concerned about the subsequent hysteria that will follow if they did. Crying shame.
 

FrancosLoveChild

Vital 1st Team Regular
#45
Yep, exactly. Unfortunately as I said earlier, too many don’t understand the difference and as a consequence no debate can be had. The media won’t help as they are too concerned about the subsequent hysteria that will follow if they did. Crying shame.
Why did the Shady guy choose BLM as the name of the movement? Because if you don't agree with the BLM movement you don't agree with the term BLM, therefore that makes you a racist. Absolutely no problem not supporting a movement for valid reasons, does not mean you disagree with the meaning. Not many people can accept that sadly. Look at Peta, everyone agrees that animals should be better looked after and most definitely be supported in their natural environment but many people including myself cannot stand the movement or organisation. Not comparing the two situations, but comparing how it's okay to support the meaning but not the people running it.
 

moonay

Vital Champions League
#49
With the aim of educating myself, I thought I'd read up a little on the BLM movement. To be honest, I've found nothing so far that I don't nod in agreement with ...... maybe apart from "disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure". It's not as drastic as it sounds, .....more communal if anything ...... but it's not for me .......and to be fair, they say that it's only with the consent of all those involved.

Live and let live.........equally.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
 

richymac

Vital Reserves Team
#51
For the majority yes, but there are extreme left and right wingers making it completely political to only serve their agenda, they only care about BLM when it suits them, and sadly most of the people eat it up and start attacking others, just look at a minority of protesters left and right causing violence in London.
Hmm no not really. The far left agenda is intertwined with a fairer and more equal society. That is essentially what Antifa are fighting for. Anti fascism and anti racism groups have worked to create more equality.
Now extreme right are more concerned about declaring that they matter too. But that is clearly not the point. They willfully miss the point. If it weren't for the idiotic statements like all lives matter we wouldn't have to come to blows like this.
There are obvious issues with systemic racism and education of race in this country and more to the point BLM is a decentralised movement (No one person in charge). Everyone is/should be a BLM supporter, they stand for equality.
I have been to the marches, haven't seen any violence. Many socially distanced to the best they could be. It is peaceful protest in search of equality. Don't get it twisted.
 

king_dezeeuw06

Vital Football Hero
#52
With the aim of educating myself, I thought I'd read up a little on the BLM movement. To be honest, I've found nothing so far that I don't nod in agreement with ...... maybe apart from "disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure". It's not as drastic as it sounds, .....more communal if anything ...... but it's not for me .......and to be fair, they say that it's only with the consent of all those involved.

Live and let live.........equally.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
They changed the 'what we believe' page after it started to draw critasism, it previously had on something along the lines of dismantle the state, end capitalism and defund the police.

The defund the police policy is still on the webstie elsewhere https://blacklivesmatter.com/defundthepolice/
 

moonay

Vital Champions League
#53
As I understand it KDZ, "de-fund" doesn't mean dismantle. .......it simply changes the way in which funding is allocated, who controls the spend, and most obviously, what it's spent on.

Fro example, money that currently may go to the police may instead be directed toward community projects which may focus on lessening the number of crimes committed, or looking at how/why offenders continually repeat their crimes, etc.

I watched an interesting debate the other day re the Minneapolis situation, and to be fair, it made a lot of sense.

As for dismantling the state, I'm not really sure about that, though ending corruption (both here and in the US) would be nice.
 

king_dezeeuw06

Vital Football Hero
#54
As I understand it KDZ, "de-fund" doesn't mean dismantle. .......it simply changes the way in which funding is allocated, who controls the spend, and most obviously, what it's spent on.

Fro example, money that currently may go to the police may instead be directed toward community projects which may focus on lessening the number of crimes committed, or looking at how/why offenders continually repeat their crimes, etc.

I watched an interesting debate the other day re the Minneapolis situation, and to be fair, it made a lot of sense.

As for dismantling the state, I'm not really sure about that, though ending corruption (both here and in the US) would be nice.
Considering the amount of crimes solved in the UK by police is about 7% a record low and something like 60% of reported crimes don't get a full investigation due to lack of resources it sounds like the police need more funding not less. If people want to invest in other things to try and stop crime in the first place then fair enough but that money coming out of the police budget to reduce numbers and stretch resources even further would make things even worse.
 

Wlatic

Vital Newbie
#55
Hmm no not really. The far left agenda is intertwined with a fairer and more equal society. That is essentially what Antifa are fighting for. Anti fascism and anti racism groups have worked to create more equality.
Now extreme right are more concerned about declaring that they matter too. But that is clearly not the point. They willfully miss the point. If it weren't for the idiotic statements like all lives matter we wouldn't have to come to blows like this.
There are obvious issues with systemic racism and education of race in this country and more to the point BLM is a decentralised movement (No one person in charge). Everyone is/should be a BLM supporter, they stand for equality.
I have been to the marches, haven't seen any violence. Many socially distanced to the best they could be. It is peaceful protest in search of equality. Don't get it twisted.
I couldn't disagree with this any more.

People are misunderstanding a little about what left and right is.

The very far left dont care about individual rights (collectivism), the vert far right dont care about anything other than individual rights (Libertarianism).

Within both you have the scales of authoritarian they are. Very far authoritarian (fascist) means you have generally a single source of power suppression of opposition, and a society with a huge amount of rules. On the opposite side you have anarchism which means no government, no force to cooperate with how you are told to run anything or live your life.

Antifa are very far left authoritarian because they believe that anyone else with a view point other than their own is a "ist or ism" of some kind and needs to be shut down. They ultimately believe in big government because they require the shut down of opinion to exist, they are likely to want to pull down statues and burn books (See 1984 and fahrenheit 451).

BLM from their policies seem Marxist, which again would be authoritarian left.

A lot of these groups believe in equality of outcome and not equality of chance.

In regards to "a fairer and more equal society" that really depends on view point, if fair means telling people how to think, how to spend your money (if you actually get paid for the work you do), not having personal responsibility over your actions then I'll pass.
 

OnLoanfromEnfield

Vital Squad Member
#56
Hmm no not really. The far left agenda is intertwined with a fairer and more equal society. That is essentially what Antifa are fighting for. Anti fascism and anti racism groups have worked to create more equality.
Now extreme right are more concerned about declaring that they matter too. But that is clearly not the point. They willfully miss the point. If it weren't for the idiotic statements like all lives matter we wouldn't have to come to blows like this.
There are obvious issues with systemic racism and education of race in this country and more to the point BLM is a decentralised movement (No one person in charge). Everyone is/should be a BLM supporter, they stand for equality.
I have been to the marches, haven't seen any violence. Many socially distanced to the best they could be. It is peaceful protest in search of equality. Don't get it twisted.
Total and utter bollocks.
There are fascists of the left and the right you buffoon ... but that doesn't fit in with your views does it.
And as for offering to joins up the dots ... I hope you are left handed because you couldn't bring yourself to go from left to right.
 
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pauadrian

Vital Youth Team
#57
Still don't understand what you guys don't get. "Black Lives Matter" isn't about black lives mattering more. It's about black lives mattering TOO.
 

hindleymonwafc

Vital 1st Team Regular
#58
Still don't understand what you guys don't get. "Black Lives Matter" isn't about black lives mattering more. It's about black lives mattering TOO.
BLM is doomed to failure though owd fettler. The silent majority view these angry people and student dopes as something they can't associate with , which I agree with. BLM is obviously true but All Lives Matter includes BLM and is the only avenue of progress.
 

hindleymonwafc

Vital 1st Team Regular
#59
I couldn't disagree with this any more.

People are misunderstanding a little about what left and right is.

The very far left dont care about individual rights (collectivism), the vert far right dont care about anything other than individual rights (Libertarianism).

Within both you have the scales of authoritarian they are. Very far authoritarian (fascist) means you have generally a single source of power suppression of opposition, and a society with a huge amount of rules. On the opposite side you have anarchism which means no government, no force to cooperate with how you are told to run anything or live your life.

Antifa are very far left authoritarian because they believe that anyone else with a view point other than their own is a "ist or ism" of some kind and needs to be shut down. They ultimately believe in big government because they require the shut down of opinion to exist, they are likely to want to pull down statues and burn books (See 1984 and fahrenheit 451).

BLM from their policies seem Marxist, which again would be authoritarian left.

A lot of these groups believe in equality of outcome and not equality of chance.

In regards to "a fairer and more equal society" that really depends on view point, if fair means telling people how to think, how to spend your money (if you actually get paid for the work you do), not having personal responsibility over your actions then I'll pass.
Great 1st post.