Politics and football. | Page 2 | Vital Football

Politics and football.

richymac

Vital Reserves Team
#21
I completely agree with the term "Black Lives Matter" but not with the movement, the movement is used by some people sadly to create division and not unity. Sadly as always, the few people ruin it for the others, and that includes everyone. Racism is much bigger than football and politics, so it's extremely sad the left and right wing mobs use It for their own political gain. Why is this movement so popular at the moment? Because the media want to use it for political purposes, I assure your if there was no election in November in the USA you would of heard nothing from it.

Sadly there is two types of people in this world, good and evil, and the evil are right now causing division. Up to the majority of the good people to see though this mirage and create unity from left to right wing groups. Much bigger than politics, always will be.

As for football, not so sure, don't agree football using the BLM movement for political exposure, but agree with using the BLM term to support eradicating racism.
BLM isn't left or right though. It is a movement of people who want equality. Can't really fault anyone for wanting equal rights can you?
 

king_dezeeuw06

Vital Football Hero
#23
Taking out the stated political aims of the BLM organisation, where the funding is going and the vandalism, looting, violence etc and the validity of any accusations of police brutality and racism within the British police etc. Those are seperate arguments, with some valid points but lets park those just for now and focus on the slogan.

If people expect everyone to accept someone saying 'black lives matter' is not racist but a subset of 'all lives matter' and not an attack on other races, then is reasonable to refuse to accept flipping that the other way round could be doing the same? Or even highlighting any potential double standard of the drastically different response to either statement - which has been what has happened. If all lives do matter and saying black lives matter is fine, then surely it's not illogical to think that white lives matter is equally ok. You can see the flip side of the argument saying it was undermining the message but for logical conistency the response to the banner has exposed some hypocrisy. Both are true at once.

I think this is exactly the problem - people see what is going on as completely different things and are defending and attacking others for how they personally percieve it without seeing that those who disagree see it in a drastically different way. A lot of narratives and motives are running parrallel all with elements of truth to them and i think a lot of people are either unware or unwilling to see the other side. There is so much conflation, generalisations, sweeping statments, misinformation and a removal of all nuance and people expecting tolerance for their perspective while refusing to give tolerance. BLM is a questionable organisation but many people supporting the movement aren't probably even aware that below the slogan there is more to it - so i don't think everyone who takes a knee sees it as a divisive movement, is in favour of attacking police, desecrating war memorials and wanting to destroy capitalism - they see it as more of a civil rights movement about equality and they can't understand why anyone would be against that bit desspite all the bullshit. But equally the people who see the terrible behaviour of some of the protests, the political agenda of the organisation and see the movement as divisively playing identity politics and refuse to support it they aren't racist or pretending there are no issues of racism but can't understand why anyone would support all the bullshit despite the anti racist sentiments that are also present. I think it's a prime example of people talking cross purposes and there is a lot of mixed messages so it's disengenous for anyone to pretend that you can't see how people could fall on either side of the debate - it's a bit like a political party you likely vote for a party despite not agreeing with everything they say or vote against a party despite liking some things they say. I think the media and too many people are caught up in how it looks rather than what it means and unable, unwilling or maybe just uninformed to have the adult conversations needed to find common ground that i think is there if we could drop the things that ultimately don't matter that are being baked in.

I think that this is the whole issue with identity politics it divides people into categories rather than unites people behind a common goal. Police brutality is an issue in America, if you look at the stats of unarmed people killed in police custody it's not majority black it's a mix of all races with the majority white, that's not to say there isn't any racism in the police but to single out victims of one identity of a wider problem while ignoring victims of a different identity suffering the same becomes divisive in itself - surely we want to end all police brutality completely and we'd be much better to tackle that by addressing all cases rather than just a subset of them?

I think the vast majority of folks are against racism or police brutality in all forms, they don't want to see colour and talk about race. If someone can find genuine instances of racism then wider society will talk about that and condemn it. But at the momement the people are being forced to see colour and talk about race in situations it previously wouldn't be an issue and if we want everyone to be treated equally then i don't think talking about our differences so much helps that. Accusations of white privildige, systemtic racism and slavery are used as sweeping generalisations against white people by some activists and when people who have not lived a privlidged life, haven't said or done anything racist, let alone owned slaves they are going to feel wrongly attacked and are going to take exception to that rather than stand besides them in tackling racism. That's not saying that we keep quiet if we find issues but we have to stop talking about skin colour when it's not a factor and making out like people are guilty for things they didn't do by merely the colour of their skin. Not everyone does that but enough are poisoning the well to create division where there doesn't need to be anyone.

I think the Burnley banner and the reaction to it highlights everything that is wrong with the whole situation - people are becoming more divided rather than united by what is going on and it will only get worse if everyone refuses to see other perspectives and talk rather than accuse each other of terrible things. I think if everyone would stop playing politics and leave identity politics out of it i think there is a common ground that could be arrived at. But i honestly think that isn't what some people driving the narrative want - i think we are letting ourselves be divided and conquored and we need to stop letting them manipulate us. There are bad actors and manipulators in every movement, but most normal folks have good intentions on both sides of the argument - if we allow ourselves to believe everyone on the other side has terrible intentions and we can't talk to them then we've already lost. You can be against racism, accept it's a real thing, be on board with tacking it where it's found, not deny anyones experience of it and care about black lives without believing the multi million dollar BLM organisation is the best way forward.
 

king_dezeeuw06

Vital Football Hero
#24
BLM isn't left or right though. It is a movement of people who want equality. Can't really fault anyone for wanting equal rights can you?
This is not true at all. The organisers of BLM in interviews and even at one point on their website bofore they changed it once it was getting circulated on line they are a Marxist movement (really strange considering what Marx had to say about black people), had aims of dismatling capitalism, bringing down the state, defunding the police, closing prisons and oppose the nuclear family. If you look into where their funding goes there is a funnel into the Democractic party in America. They demonstrably are a radical left political organisation. This isn't even a secret or accusation the info is out there - if you want to support them despite that you are entitled to but that is what they are.
 

Hampton

Vital 1st Team Regular
#25
BLM isn't left or right though. It is a movement of people who want equality. Can't really fault anyone for wanting equal rights can you?
a. BLM clearly to the left of Corbyn and maybe Lenin - you've noted their "objectives" I take it.
b. Completely agree that everyone wants equal rights - so why aren't you supportive of WLM to the same degree ?
 

king_dezeeuw06

Vital Football Hero
#26
The part about police killing people in the UK is not true, 1 black person was killed by the police last year which was the London Bridge terrorist. There have been i believe 13 black people, 19 other races and 140 white people killed by police in the last 10 years combined if you look up the statistics (that includes all terrorists or violent criminals putting people in danger. If people want to talk about other racism then fair enough but it is not fair to accuse our police of racist police brutality. Great strives have been made since Steven Laurence if we deny things are getting better when they we end up demoralising people rather than giving them hope that things can continue to improve. The facts are important if we are to understand and address issues.
 

jocklatic

Vital Squad Member
#27
Admin can you take this thread into off topic, it has all the hallmarks of descending into political/ racial point scoring whilst giving the likes of RichyM & Co the platform to be condescending which may lead to someone saying something they may well regret....I'll give it a miss on replying to some of the posters on this thread, so please move it to off topic..
 
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moonay

Vital Champions League
#28
The part about police killing people in the UK is not true, 1 black person was killed by the police last year which was the London Bridge terrorist. There have been i believe 13 black people, 19 other races and 140 white people killed by police in the last 10 years combined if you look up the statistics
To add relevant context KDZ, making those stats relative to the make-up of the UK population, that means that black people are more than twice as likely to die in police custody.
 

hindleymonwafc

Vital 1st Team Regular
#30
I don't feel vilified hindley. Do you? Even if you do, I'm not really sure why you should.

The slavery stuff is really just an offshoot ................I see no problem at all in remembering our past .....though I'm not sure if we need to commemorate or venerate those who exploited it and made their wealth from some of the more regrettable sides of it.

Your Muslim analogy is false. In the same way that no-one is saying that "an entire genre of people are being vilified", then no reasonable person would accuse an entire community of being guilty by association through religion of the acts of others.

Save the children.
Help the aged.
Black lives matter.
There's no problem with any of the above. None of them exclude those outside the statements. IT would be illogical to think that they do.
I dont personally feel vilified no mate but some may. BLM is too exclusive and therefore will not command widespread support of the silent majority....as such I will not back it or white lives matter either. The All lives matter is the movement that would gain universal backing....how can anybody argue that all lives are equal and matter equally?
 

king_dezeeuw06

Vital Football Hero
#31
To add relevant context KDZ, making those stats relative to the make-up of the UK population, that means that black people are more than twice as likely to die in police custody.
But without knowing the overall context of each case it's impossible to know if those cases were genuine police brutality or justifiable like the police taking out the terrorist on London bridge before they hurt anyone else. The is certainly the possibility that there are cases of racism and police brutality in those 13 but the issue was more the figures show that the police have killed about 1.3 black people a year over the last decade on average- even if every single one of those cases was unjustified police brutality fueld by racism it isn't a wide spread epedemic like it is being painted to be. There will always be some bad police officers and no dout those need to be punished but these numbers being so low don't suggest there is a police brutality issue at all.
 

Made in Wigan

Vital Football Hero
#32
Moonay hit it on the head the other week (there is a saying here about a broken clock) Black lives matter too - that should have been the strapline - it would have avoided all the negativity around the importance of the message.

The controversy is around the stated political aims of the Blm uk movement. Sadly some/most don’t understand the difference and nuance around the two and the media won’t highlight it for that reason given the negative backlash it would bring. I also don’t think many care about the difference, as it’s just a bandwagon for them to jump along to virtue signal and pretend they are holier than thou. When folk are preaching to others about joining the dots it’s a guarantee they couldn’t actually find their arse with their own hands on the issue.

Unfortunately this Marxist movement have now hijacked an important issue and they have succeeded in creating the division they crave. Flying that banner wasn’t illegal, but at that time was insensitive. Blm uk were probably delighted.

Statues should not be torn down. History isn’t something to like or dislike, it’s factual and is something to learn from. You can’t erase it, hide from it or pretend it didn’t happen. If that history ‘offends’ then perhaps that is a good thing as it should ensure people are less likely to repeat it.
 

moonay

Vital Champions League
#33
I dont personally feel vilified no mate but some may. BLM is too exclusive and therefore will not command widespread support of the silent majority....as such I will not back it or white lives matter either. The All lives matter is the movement that would gain universal backing....how can anybody argue that all lives are equal and matter equally?
As KDZ quite eloquently put, I don't think anybody is arguing that point ........it's just that sometimes, unconscious bias needs to be discussed, everyone made conscious. That's all.

I completely agree that there are two separate issues too - a statement and a movement, both using the same name. For me, people are supporting the statement, not the movement.
 

moonay

Vital Champions League
#34
But without knowing the overall context of each case it's impossible to know if those cases were genuine police brutality or justifiable like the police taking out the terrorist on London bridge before they hurt anyone else. The is certainly the possibility that there are cases of racism and police brutality in those 13 but the issue was more the figures show that the police have killed about 1.3 black people a year over the last decade on average- even if every single one of those cases was unjustified police brutality fueld by racism it isn't a wide spread epedemic like it is being painted to be. There will always be some bad police officers and no dout those need to be punished but these numbers being so low don't suggest there is a police brutality issue at all.
You got your numbers from the BBC article I presume ........ I simply added the bit you'd missed out, that's all.

I see your point that maybe it's not a massive problem over here, but twice as likely (even though the numbers are low) is still significant.
 

king_dezeeuw06

Vital Football Hero
#35
You got your numbers from the BBC article I presume ........ I simply added the bit you'd missed out, that's all.

I see your point that maybe it's not a massive problem over here, but twice as likely (even though the numbers are low) is still significant.
No, i read that elsewhere few weeks ago when it started, not seen the article, so i've not missed anything out. Point was purely if there are approx 2m black people in the UK 13 killed over the past decade without any caviat for justifiable vs none justifiable police killing is not a sign of police brutality. The video shared implied police brutality killing black people in this country was an issue and it's not a fair statement.
 

king_dezeeuw06

Vital Football Hero
#36
As KDZ quite eloquently put, I don't think anybody is arguing that point ........it's just that sometimes, unconscious bias needs to be discussed, everyone made conscious. That's all.

I completely agree that there are two separate issues too - a statement and a movement, both using the same name. For me, people are supporting the statement, not the movement.
I think the whole is they are trying to get people to support the movement by deliberetly conflating it with the statement. I don't think the majority realise they are different things and this is why we have issues, it could be easily solved but it's not in everyones interst to do that unfortunately.
 

moonay

Vital Champions League
#37
No, i read that elsewhere few weeks ago when it started, not seen the article, so i've not missed anything out. Point was purely if there are approx 2m black people in the UK 13 killed over the past decade without any caviat for justifiable vs none justifiable police killing is not a sign of police brutality. The video shared implied police brutality killing black people in this country was an issue and it's not a fair statement.
But comparative to the killing of white people, based on relative population, it's twice as prevalent.

That's important.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52890363
 

hindleymonwafc

Vital 1st Team Regular
#38
But comparative to the killing of white people, based on relative population, it's twice as prevalent.

That's important.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52890363
The important thing though moonay is folk aren't buying into any of this..and as such is going nowhere longterm. You have to take people willingly with you for success and that what I see on the telly feels too niche, too exclusive. I think Joshua summed my take on all this when he inadvertently said only shop in black owned business. If you think that's the attitude to nail your colours to then go for it...I won't be.

All lives matter and that is the best bet for equality.
 

king_dezeeuw06

Vital Football Hero
#39
But comparative to the killing of white people, based on relative population, it's twice as prevalent.

That's important.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52890363
But when the numbers are so low, 1 can make a huge distortion in the numbers.

Last year the police killed 2 people combined i believe - 1 white and 1 black. Statistically that makes the numbers 50% so you can see how taking percentages without numbers can tell a diffetent story. If the police only killed that London terrorist it would be 100% death rate of one race. Without context that can reflect differently to reality. There have been people on tv intrviewed saying hundred of black people are killed by the police every year and the presenters never correct them so there is an issue here with misrepresentation.

There could be issues, but we'd have to judge those on the individual merits of the cases (there are so few that is easy to do) as i think when numbers are so low it's impossible to paint an accurate picture of unfair treatment statistically due to just one more or one less death can skew things hugely.