please sign grooming gang petition

[richymac]

Cover up started under Blaire and Brown, Labour sacked Sarah Champion for trying to talk about it and suspended Trevor Phillips this week for the same type of thing, Corbyn was told about it happening in his constituency by social workers years ago and he did nothing about it (like pretty much every MP in the country) - so let's not make out that only one side of the isle is at fault - it's been a cross party, cross government cover up for decades. Hardly anyone has clean hands on this, they all turned a blind eye.

Plenty of left wing media just as guilty of ignoring the stories too, it's not a right wing media issue - they are all afraid to touch the issue.

Apparently part of the issue between Priti Patel and the civil service is she wants the report published and they are going to lengths trying to block it. Regardless of what anyone thinks of her lets hope this is true and she get's her way and we see someone finally try and address this issue properly.

Also if you want to talk about cuts you have to talk about why the cuts were made - a dangerously unsustainable defecit inherited from the previous government to the tune of 150b.

I'm not looking to get into a political debate just pointing out that there is another side to the story and neither side are very good. We've been failed by Labour and Conservatives, left and right continually - neither side should be given a pass.

Hmm 10 years of being in power and much of the msm in this country is owned by the right.

Will agree that not enough was done by Blair but if this government really wanted to crack down on it they would have had ample time to make at least some steps to improve it right?

worth noting the national deficit was 6.9% of GDP in 2010 in response to the 2008 GLOBAL economic crisis. It was substantially less leading up to that event. Also worth noting that borrowing and the national debt have increased over the last 10 years.

So if we have lowered the deficit and have more debt surely there will be more money for public services which help stop atrocities like this?

 

[moonay]

I agree 100%, but we all know that there are elements in the country who will try to use it as justification for overt racism. All I'm saying is that the reporting needs to be candid but also take care not to be put in such a way as to to enable it to be turned into racist spin.

Yep.

Grooming gangs .........Pakistani men.............. not all Pakistani men (a tiny proportion)
IRA ....................................Catholics ......................not all Catholics (a tiny proportion)
Islamist bombers ....... Muslims ........................not all Muslims (a tony proportion)
Self serving Tory MPs ......... ah well ....... there's always an exception to any rule.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Yep.

Grooming gangs .........Pakistani men.............. not all Pakistani men (a tiny proportion)
IRA ....................................Catholics ......................not all Catholics (a tiny proportion)
Islamist bombers ....... Muslims ........................not all Muslims (a tony proportion)
Self serving Tory MPs ......... ah well ....... there's always an exception to any rule.

Now do Labour MPs

 

[moonay]

Now do Labour MPs

I'm surprised that you were the one to bite there KDZ.

For clarity .................. there are a great many Tory and Labour (and other party) MPs who do a great deal of good, especially for their constituents ....... a small proportion of these also feather their own nests just a little,............there are also a far smaller number of MPs (from all parties) who seem to be driven by self interest.

I hope the gist of my initial point is still supported by this clarification.

 

[loudmouthblue]

Cover up started under Blaire and Brown, Labour sacked Sarah Champion for trying to talk about it and suspended Trevor Phillips this week for the same type of thing, Corbyn was told about it happening in his constituency by social workers years ago and he did nothing about it (like pretty much every MP in the country) - so let's not make out that only one side of the isle is at fault - it's been a cross party, cross government cover up for decades. Hardly anyone has clean hands on this, they all turned a blind eye.

Plenty of left wing media just as guilty of ignoring the stories too, it's not a right wing media issue - they are all afraid to touch the issue.

Apparently part of the issue between Priti Patel and the civil service is she wants the report published and they are going to lengths trying to block it. Regardless of what anyone thinks of her lets hope this is true and she get's her way and we see someone finally try and address this issue properly.

Also if you want to talk about cuts you have to talk about why the cuts were made - a dangerously unsustainable defecit inherited from the previous government to the tune of 150b.

I'm not looking to get into a political debate just pointing out that there is another side to the story and neither side are very good. We've been failed by Labour and Conservatives, left and right continually - neither side should be given a pass.

When has anyone in this country EVER been failed by a left wing government, we have never had one.

Which "left wing" media has ignored these "stories", please do not claim the neo liberal guardian is somehow a left wing publication, the mirror perhaps is more left of centre on occasions, neither are as foaming at the mouth as the rest of the right wing rags but they most certainly are not leftist newspapers.

Let me correct you on a couple of other right wing biased claims you have made.

Sarah Champion was NOT sacked she received criticism for an article published in her name by the sun newspaper and resigned, she later apologised for letting her name be put to that article which she claimed did not represent her views and had been edited to contain out and out lies.

Trevor Philips was not suspended this week "for the same type of thing", he was suspended because that is now the policy of the labour party when a complaint and allegation of racism/antisemitism or prejudices remark is made, Philips has been reported by someone, are you suggesting the rule should apply to some and not others because it suits your political bias.

 

[moonay]

When has anyone in this country EVER been failed by a left wing government, we have never had one.
.........

To be fair, that's a very valid point. None of the Labour governments - and especially Blair's - have been (what we'd now term as) left wing.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Hmm 10 years of being in power and much of the msm in this country is owned by the right.

Will agree that not enough was done by Blair but if this government really wanted to crack down on it they would have had ample time to make at least some steps to improve it right?

worth noting the national deficit was 6.9% of GDP in 2010 in response to the 2008 GLOBAL economic crisis. It was substantially less leading up to that event. Also worth noting that borrowing and the national debt have increased over the last 10 years.

So if we have lowered the deficit and have more debt surely there will be more money for public services which help stop atrocities like this?

'Not enough was done' is letting Brown and Blair off very lightly, Nazir Afzal the former North West Prosecutor who prosecuted the first grooming gang cases in 2011 said the Labour home office in 2008 sent instructions urging police not to investigate the cases. It wasn't they didn't put enough effort in, they actively told police to do nothing. A Labour peer in the house of Lords is currently under investigation for direct involvement in the Rotherham cases also and reccently Phillips and Champion have been punished by the party for breaking the code of silence - so again Labour have absolutely zero leg to stand on. The first cases were prosecuted in 2011 under a Conservative government and there have been plenty of further prosections since but i don't think they've done anything like enough either - but if we are comparing then Labour have at least as much if not more blood on their hands. It's just not true to say that any public service cuts had any baring on this scandal, the kids reported it, the social workers, councillors, police, MPs, the media etc all knew and at the highest level they refused to deal with it too often. The issue isn't resources or knoweldge of it happening it was a lack or willingness to take action.

Regarding the financial crash, it just added to an already unsustainably large defecit ran up prior to the crash (it was 60b the previous year). Australia and Canada ran a surplus prior to the crash and had reserves to help recover within a couple of years - while we still haven't fully recoverd despite us paying off about 120b over the last decade or so. Our credit card was effectively maxed out before the emergency and it was wreckless to ever leave us vulnerable like that. Pointing out the national debt has gone up is a direct result of the defecit being so large - you can only stop acumilating debt once the defecit has been cleared.

There is certainly a lot of fair critasism to be aimed at Osborn and Hammonds approach to the recovery cuts were absolutely necessary under the circumstances (if Labour would've won in 2010, then they'd have almost certainly had to make cuts of some description too) but what they cut and what they funded were things they didn't get right in certain instances. It's undeniable they inherited a disaster with the infamous 'there is no money left note' from Liam Byrne the Labour Treasury Sec, so it's disengenous to only point the finger at the people who didn't salvage the wreckage very well without mentioning who crashed the car into the wall.

Neither side has been very good.

 

[The Fear]

Move this to off topic please mods!

Moved. If you ever need something moved fine folks, please alert it or pm me, to get my attention!

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

When has anyone in this country EVER been failed by a left wing government, we have never had one.

Which "left wing" media has ignored these "stories", please do not claim the neo liberal guardian is somehow a left wing publication, the mirror perhaps is more left of centre on occasions, neither are as foaming at the mouth as the rest of the right wing rags but they most certainly are not leftist newspapers.

Let me correct you on a couple of other right wing biased claims you have made.

Sarah Champion was NOT sacked she received criticism for an article published in her name by the sun newspaper and resigned, she later apologised for letting her name be put to that article which she claimed did not represent her views and had been edited to contain out and out lies.

Trevor Philips was not suspended this week "for the same type of thing", he was suspended because that is now the policy of the labour party when a complaint and allegation of racism/antisemitism or prejudices remark is made, Philips has been reported by someone, are you suggesting the rule should apply to some and not others because it suits your political bias.

If the roles were reversed and Rotherham MP Sarah Champion was a Tory MP and she put out a article (that was carefully worded and nothing wrong with) trying to talk about the cancer of the grooming scandal in her constituency and the Conservative party had critasised and lets be honest pressured into back tracking and resigning - you would rightly be critical. To then replace her with Naz Shah who infamous liked and retweeted something along the lines of grooming gang victims should shut up for the sake of diveristy' and had had anti semetic tweets in the past is beggars belief.

Phillips was chairman of the European Human Rights Commision and Comission for Racial Equality and has conducted detailed reports about integration - we all know he's not a racist and is as qualified as it gets to talk about the mine field that is this issue. As far as i've ever seen he's not said anything to warrent investigation and suspension so surely you only have a suspension if the claim was at least feesable? The fact Naz Sha herself wasn't actually suspended for the tweet mentioned above shows Phillips has not been treated fairly. Again if this was the Tory party suspending Phillips you would be very critical, and your critasism would be justified so let's be consistent.

Lets leave it there on politics - we aren't going to agree so lets not waste either of our time dragging it out any longer.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

To be fair, that's a very valid point. None of the Labour governments - and especially Blair's - have been (what we'd now term as) left wing.

But they certainly weren't right wing either - it depends on where an individual draws the line.

I think many folks on the right think the Conservatives are quite left wing and Labour far left and many folks on the left think Labour are quite right wing and the Torys far right. Polar opposite views but both sides would scoff at the other sides interpretation.

Reality is British public is quite centrist and both parties generally try and appeal to those voters, i think you could make the argument 'we've never had a proper left wing government' as much as you can make the argument 'we've never had a proper right wing government' and either side would argue the opposite. Politics is probably the craziest thing where individual interpretation swing so wildly with beliefs that it's like people are talking about different worlds when refering to the same situation.

 

[moonay]

If the Guardian isn't left enough for you then i think your definition of left wing is so far left the centre left looks like Pinochet..........

Although, to switch it round the other way, if you think the Guardian is "left wing", then you surely the right wing press (which are far more right than the Guardian is left) must look like they're run by the Ku Klux Klan!

I'd go .....

Left wing - Morning Star
Left of centre - Guardian, Mirror
Centre - Independent
Right of centre - Times
Right wing - Mail, Telegraph, Express, Sun,

 

[moonay]

But they certainly weren't right wing either - it depends on where an individual draws the line.......

Oh, absolutely, I agree. However, the fact that they are so now loathed by the Corbyn faction within the current Labour party means that they certainly can't be termed as left wing. To be fair, they ere probably ever so slightly left of centre, but not afraid to jump over the fence to the right if need be.

.......I think many folks on the right think the Conservatives are quite left wing and Labour far left and many folks on the left think Labour are quite right wing and the Torys far right. Polar opposite views but both sides would scoff at the other sides interpretation......

I think both parties are split. The ERG being far right within a bunch of "one nation Tories", and the momentum movement (and LMB will correct me if I have this wrong) within a "pink socialist" Labour party. Hence why both parties have so often seemed at war with each other.

.......Reality is British public is quite centrist and both parties generally try and appeal to those voters, i think you could make the argument 'we've never had a proper left wing government' as much as you can make the argument 'we've never had a proper right wing government' and either side would argue the opposite.

I think the current government is as right wing as we've ever had .......certainly in terms of the influence that side of the party appears to be able to wield.

The current left within Labour would argue profusely that Blair wasn't left. However, no-one on the far right in the Tory party would currently say anything against Johnson.

 

[hindleymonwafc]

Centre - Independent

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Although, to switch it round the other way, if you think the Guardian is "left wing", then you surely the right wing press (which are far more right than the Guardian is left) must look like they're run by the Ku Klux Klan!

I'd go .....

Left wing - Morning Star
Left of centre - Guardian, Mirror
Centre - Independent
Right of centre - Times
Right wing - Mail, Telegraph, Express, Sun,

Agree on right wing - no argument there. Historically i'd agree with the rest but these days i'd say Times, Independent, Guardian and Mirror all lean more left than in the past.

To be honest when we say right and left though it probably means different things to different people. I think a lot of arguments come from talking cross purposes by collectively using one term when we all see it having potentially a different meaning.

 

[moonay]

I suppose there had to be a little bit of leeway there hindley .........and its probably slightly more left leaning than right, but it's hardly a communist rag !

 

[moonay]

I can go with that KDZ ........except for the Times.

That said, being "not quite as far to the right as they used to be" would mean that they "lean more left than in the past".

It still keeps them on the right. It just depends on your starting point.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Oh, absolutely, I agree. However, the fact that they are so now loathed by the Corbyn faction within the current Labour party means that they certainly can't be termed as left wing. To be fair, they ere probably ever so slightly left of centre, but not afraid to jump over the fence to the right if need be.



I think both parties are split. The ERG being far right within a bunch of "one nation Tories", and the momentum movement (and LMB will correct me if I have this wrong) within a "pink socialist" Labour party. Hence why both parties have so often seemed at war with each other.



I think the current government is as right wing as we've ever had .......certainly in terms of the influence that side of the party appears to be able to wield.

The current left within Labour would argue profusely that Blair wasn't left. However, no-one on the far right in the Tory party would currently say anything against Johnson.

I think you are right about the parties effectively being 2 parties within each, but everyone is afraid of splitting the vote so they just stick knowing that if they ever break off and the other side stick as a unit they guarentee power the opposite way.

Would you say Boris is further right than Thatcher? I wouldn't say so personally.

 

[hindleymonwafc]

I suppose there had to be a little bit of leeway there hindley .........and its probably slightly more left leaning than right, but it's hardly a communist rag !

I dont like it pal...anything that claims to be independent then constantly leans one way, isn't. That's not because it's left or right it's just bollocks to claim the centre ground when it doesn't treat all the same.

 

[moonay]

........Would you say Boris is further right than Thatcher? I wouldn't say so personally.

Johnson?.....no. The influence from the (far) right within the current party (and Johnson's willingness to buckle under/take advantage of it (delete as appropriate), ..... yes

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Johnson?.....no. The influence from the (far) right within the current party (and Johnson's willingness to buckle under/take advantage of it (delete as appropriate), ..... yes

Fair enough, but what would you personally define the right and what is the difference between far right? I don't know if it's ever really been clearly defined, must just a generality, but i imagine what the left and right wouldn't agree on either definition.