Piling tax burden on the successful isn't smart

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UK tax system is 'punishing success' says Institute for Fiscal Studies

IFS voices concern about state’s growing reliance on tax revenue from small number of high earners



Danny Alexander, the Liberal Democrat Chief Secretary to the Treasury, said yesterday that the top rate would be brought down to 40p — its level before the financial crisis


By Matthew Holehouse, Political Correspondent

10:00PM GMT 05 Feb 2014



Forcing Britain’s highest earners to foot a greater share of the nation’s tax bill is putting the Government’s long-term finances at risk, a leading economic think tank has warned.


The Institute for Fiscal Studies raised concerns about the state’s growing reliance on tax revenue from a small number of high earners.


“Lumping more taxes on the rich” is not a sustainable long-term strategy, the IFS suggested, as it warned that the ability and willingness of high earners to pay more tax could eventually run out. The think tank’s warning coincides with a heated debate in Westminster about the tax burden being placed on those with the largest incomes, with Conservative MPs warning against “soaking the rich” to fund services for the rest.


Official figures show that 300,000 people earning more than £150,000 a year now pay almost 30 per cent of all income tax — and 7.5 per cent of all tax revenue.


This places the stability of the public finances under threat because high earners whose taxes prop up the state could opt to emigrate, find ways of reducing their tax bills, or simply suffer declines in their fortunes, the IFS said. Government spending plans have become “very sensitive” to changes in the behaviour and status of a group that includes bankers and business executives and owners, as well as senior public employees including some NHS doctors.


If revenue from that small group falls, the Government would be forced to borrow even more money than it is now, the IFS said, suggesting that the Treasury should try to widen the tax base by targeting other sources.

“The Government might be concerned if the Exchequer becomes increasingly reliant on one particular revenue source, as it increases the risk that a shock to one revenue source would have serious implications for total revenues,” the IFS said in its annual Green Budget.

Politicians should resist the “knee-jerk” urge to tax the rich harder during downturns or risk them leaving the country, the economists said.

Rowena Crawford, a senior economist at the IFS, urged ministers to consider the stability of the tax base “rather than at the first sign of problems lumping more taxes on the rich people because of 'the broadest shoulders and all that’?”.

“The world is more mobile than it used to be,” she said.

“You become sensitive to the payment behaviour of those individuals. If you push them too far and they emigrate then you lose revenue.” The IFS did not call for a tax cut for high earners, but its findings offered encouragement to Conservative MPs who believe that David Cameron should ease the burden on the rich.


Steve Baker, the Conservative MP for Wycombe, said: “It is a cruel fairy tale to believe that 99 per cent of the public can live on the earnings of one per cent.

“A policy of soak the rich is not a sensible one; the system cannot sustain itself.”

Supporters of lower tax for high earners argue that lower rates would encourage people to earn more in the UK, ultimately pushing up overall tax revenues. Last week the Labour Party pledged to lift the top rate of tax from 45p to 50p if it wins the next general election, and challenged Conservative ministers to rule out any cut in the top rate of tax.

Danny Alexander, the Liberal Democrat Chief Secretary to the Treasury, said on Wednesday that the top rate would be brought down to 40p — its level before the financial crisis — “over my dead body”.

However, Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, indicated that plans to cut taxes for the richest would appear in the Conservative manifesto, which is being written by his brother, Jo, the Orpington MP and head of the No. 10 Policy Unit.

“I don’t think we are going to go into an election with a campaign to keep our tax rates higher,” the Mayor said.

The IFS criticised Coalition moves to shrink the tax base further by lifting the personal allowance to £10,000, at a cost of £10?billion a year.

The Liberal Democrats plan to raise it higher, to £12,500, costing a further £12?billion a year.

The policy is an poorly targeted and expensive way of making the poorest better off and the money would be better spent by increasing the personal allowance on National Insurance contributions, or by allowing people on benefits to keep more of their own money when they start work, the think tank said.

Labour’s plans to reintroduce a 10p tax rate would be even less well targeted at the poorest and would make the tax system more complicated, it claimed.

“It is hard to find a coherent economic rationale for it,” the IFS said.

The IFS identifies two trends that have forced a shrinking band of people to bear a growing share of the State’s tax revenue.

The tax burden has shifted from business taxes and fuel duties onto personal taxation and property taxes. The share of taxes borne by capital gains tax, stamp duties and inheritance tax is expected to reach 5 per cent by 2018, the highest since records began in 1978.

At the same time, the Government has become reliant on the top one per cent for a greater share of the tax take, rising from 21.3 per cent in 2000 to 29.8 per cent this year.

In the same period, that one per cent’s share of the national wealth before tax has risen more slowly, from 11 per cent to 13.7 per cent.

Their true contribution is even higher because the wealthiest pay a “large fraction” of VAT and capital taxes.

The stamp duty from the London boroughs of Westminster and Kensington and Chelsea alone account for 14 per cent of all revenue.

The shrinking tax base may discourage politicians from curbing inequality, as it is in the taxman’s interest that the super-rich prosper.

“It could be better for you if the top one per cent has roaring income growth and everybody else ticks along, because you get more revenue out of it,” Ms Crawford said.

The Prime Minister has declined to rule out cutting the top rate but insists any tax cuts will be targeted at low and middle-income voters.
 
er, yes it is.

same old whingeing from the same old quarters. If you earn that much more then you should pay that much more and if you really dont want to go and live somewhere else.

Have I made myself clear?
 
ST2 - 6/2/2014 14:18

er, yes it is.

same old whingeing from the same old quarters. If you earn that much more then you should pay that much more and if you really dont want to go and live somewhere else.

Have I made myself clear?


Ditto :7:
 
spurdon - 6/2/2014 15:14

ST2 - 6/2/2014 14:18

er, yes it is.

same old whingeing from the same old quarters. If you earn that much more then you should pay that much more and if you really dont want to go and live somewhere else.

Have I made myself clear?


Ditto :7:

But the fact that they do go and live somewhere else is THE problem. Unless of course you get remarkably patriotic and socially responsible people like moi....and someone else that hangs around here a fair bit.

I have a question for you. What is wrong with a flat tax that also gives deductions at lower levels of income? For example everyone pays 25% on all income. However, everyone gets the first 10K tax free and 10K tax free per child under 18 living dependently. The child deduction can be applied to either partner in the marriage.

For simplicity lets say we have someone making 100K with no children.

They would pay 25% on 90K which is 22,500.

Then we have someone making 30K with no children. They would pay on 20K which is 5,000.

This example works out that someone making 100K and earning 3.3 times more than the 30K earner pays 4.5 times more tax.

If you start adding children in a family that earns 40K between tham with 2 children would not pay any taxes die to the 10K exemption per person within that family unit.

Simple and fair.

 
The super wealthy. Like professional footballers wage for instance.

Flat tax becomes unfair when these uber wealthy sorts are only taxed this way.
 
Galvin's Shinpads - 6/2/2014 18:53

The super wealthy. Like professional footballers wage for instance.

Flat tax becomes unfair when these uber wealthy sorts are only taxed this way.

So without any deductions , assuming someone has an income of 10,000,000 at a 25% flat tax rate they would pay 2,500,000 in taxes,

Anyone making 1% of that, 100,000 at the same rate would pay 25,000.

They make 100 times more and they pay 100 times more tax. That is unfair?
 
ST2 - 6/2/2014 14:18

er, yes it is.

same old whingeing from the same old quarters. If you earn that much more then you should pay that much more and if you really dont want to go and live somewhere else.

Have I made myself clear?

and what will you do when having fleeced the successful, the hard workers, the risk takers and the job creators and seeing revenues fall through the floor and jobs disappear faster than you can wave a red flag....what will they do then?

Oh yes, just as they did before; they'll borrow and borrow and borrow until we're vitualy bankrupt, the they'll put up direct and indirect taxes for the next layer down then the next and then the next, and eventually as they always do, they'll have screwed the economy up and will run away to leave to the next government to clear it up again - just as they've always done...

How about applying a little commonsense and acknowldeging that we desperately need the 1% and making sure that we don't lose them, but that we actucally help the self-employed, the small business owners become more successful to help create more new job and wealth?

Now, just for one, instead of the politics of jealousy, wouldn't that be refreshing...?
 
people are sick of those with mucho dinero moaning about potential tax hikes Ex. You just rolled out the 'dreadful consequences' of an increase which I dont believe would happen. In any case I still see no reason to not tax big earners more as a matter of social justice.

To have an ordinary family who are struggling to pay mortgages, fuel bills etc pay the same rate as one on major money who own 2 houses and a villa in Tuscany/wherever.

'politics of jealousy' ??? Your mindset is a bit twisted, what you mean is a sense of injustice that I and many more share. Nothing to do with jealousy.

And your constant ranting about everything being Labour's fault is becoming a bit 'swivel-eyed'.

How about applying a little commonsense and acknowldeging that we desperately need the 1% and making sure that we don't lose them, but that we actucally help the self-employed, the small business owners become more successful to help create more new job and wealth?

Read more: http://www.spurs.vitalfootball.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=38262&posts=8#ixzz2scVelqIG


what? like the banks being baled out to generate growth and then keeping the cash rather than loan to those small businesses? As for the 1% I believe most would stay and continue to contribute to the economy but this crazed campaign of 'please dont tax the rulers of the universe or they'll blast off into Space!' is wearing thin. Anyway last time it was raised Jim Davidson and Phil Collins left the country so think of the potential benefits?

I have no time for New Labour either but to blame everything on them is massively twisted
 
ST2 - 7/2/2014 07:50

people are sick of those with mucho dinero moaning about potential tax hikes Ex. You just rolled out the 'dreadful consequences' of an increase which I dont believe would happen. In any case I still see no reason to not tax big earners more as a matter of social justice.

To have an ordinary family who are struggling to pay mortgages, fuel bills etc pay the same rate as one on major money who own 2 houses and a villa in Tuscany/wherever.

'politics of jealousy' ??? Your mindset is a bit twisted, what you mean is a sense of injustice that I and many more share. Nothing to do with jealousy.

And your constant ranting about everything being Labour's fault is becoming a bit 'swivel-eyed'.

How about applying a little commonsense and acknowldeging that we desperately need the 1% and making sure that we don't lose them, but that we actucally help the self-employed, the small business owners become more successful to help create more new job and wealth?

Read more: http://www.spurs.vitalfootball.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=38262&posts=8#ixzz2scVelqIG


what? like the banks being baled out to generate growth and then keeping the cash rather than loan to those small businesses? As for the 1% I believe most would stay and continue to contribute to the economy but this crazed campaign of 'please dont tax the rulers of the universe or they'll blast off into Space!' is wearing thin. Anyway last time it was raised Jim Davidson and Phil Collins left the country so think of the potential benefits?

I have no time for New Labour either but to blame everything on them is massively twisted

ST2,

whether you accept it or not, the bank debacle and all of it's consequences (not least the way they tried to tackle it) are ALL down to how labour allowed deregulation to run amok. It was Brown's ridiculously stupid message to the markets that 'boom and bust' was over that started an orgy of debt and it was labour that took oversight of Banks away from the BoE (who'd done it pretty successful for long periods in the last 300 odd years)...

Labour did this, they did little of any good whatsoever; (labour politicians have been lining up to say how they screwed up on just about every major policy they put in place) the consequences of which we are having to deal with and have dealt with for the last 4-5 years.

Without the self-employed, the wealth generators, the job creators, as a country we are finished, alienating them is about as dumb as it gets - the top 10% of earners in the UK pay the vast majority of taxes, that allow all the social benefit programs some love so much to actually happen...

France as an example have taken the 'let's get our hands on as much of their money as we can get approach' ...the consequence of which is that there was a complete collapse in foreign investment in france (down to just £3 billion last year), whereas ours hit nigh on 10 times that...

'soaking the best and the brightest in our commercial fields' is counter productive, as the French are now finding out (who are a labour government and socialist policies personified!), and whilst they're sinking deeper into the mire, we are powering out of it..

Now what economy would you rather be in today, theirs or ours?
 
Galvin's Shinpads - 6/2/2014 18:53

The super wealthy. Like professional footballers wage for instance.

Flat tax becomes unfair when these uber wealthy sorts are only taxed this way.

I really fail to understand your use of the word unfair. How is a flat rate of tax anything but fair? If I earn 10k I pay 10%, if I earn 100k I pay 10%, if I earn millions I pay 10%. The millionaire pays more tax, but the rate stays the same.

The problem isn't that the rich don't get taxed enough, the problem is the rich avoid the tax they owe. Ramping up the amount they have to pay is hardly going to solve that, is it? Its just likely to encourage more to avoid it.
 
Jesus, just define "hard workers" for a minute please? People with low paid jobs are every bit, if not more important to society than the high earners. Can we live without refuse collection, nurses, teachers, delivery drivers, shop assistants? Or can we live without investment bankers, technology designers, lawyers...... Its ridiculous how some professions are valued over others.

Fact is that the super rich couldn't actually survive without the poor lower earners, not the other way round... The rich paying back the service through tax helps those on lower incomes have a slightly improved standard of life. IMO the 10k personal allowance threshold is still too low, but I'm glad that its been vastly increased over the past 4 years. The rich/poor divide shouldn't be allowed to expand any further
 
Ex just said hard workers as, what looks like, areason for getting rich and successful. That's how I read it anyway. I didn't read it as him belittling refuse collectors.

The world can't live without public sector workers, but unless we live in a communist, isolationist state, we cant live without the money to pay for them either...
 
Dave the Yid - 7/2/2014 10:20

Jesus, just define "hard workers" for a minute please? People with low paid jobs are every bit, if not more important to society than the high earners. Can we live without refuse collection, nurses, teachers, delivery drivers, shop assistants? Or can we live without investment bankers, technology designers, lawyers...... Its ridiculous how some professions are valued over others.

Fact is that the super rich couldn't actually survive without the poor lower earners, not the other way round... The rich paying back the service through tax helps those on lower incomes have a slightly improved standard of life. IMO the 10k personal allowance threshold is still too low, but I'm glad that its been vastly increased over the past 4 years. The rich/poor divide shouldn't be allowed to expand any further

Dave,

I'm not sure anyone is arguing that it should....

If anything (although their is much evidence that suggests it hinders and stops job creation locally) even now there are those in the conservative party arguing for higher thresholds for low paid and a much higher minimum wage..

Public services (enjoyed and used by all) are there precisely because the top 10% tax payers pay the vast majority of income tax by revenue; if we 'do a France and hike top tax rates', then guess what happens...exactly as has happened, tax revenues have taken a turn for the worse, their is almost a wholesale migration out of France to the SE now, with huge numbers of French professionals now living in England and working in France! And in turn investment in France (which creates jobs and wealth) has all but collapsed - that is the actual factual reality, do we really want to go down the same path?!!!

That would be utterly stupid, but it's exactly that, that labour are now proposing to do...!!

So, if they do it, they'll have to massively increase borrowing yet again to meet their election commitments, job creation will virtually stagnate (unless as they did last time they throw money at the public sector and get more and more working there) and our economy will once again be heading for the tank....it's the economics of the nuthouse!
 
their is almost a wholesale migration out of France to the SE now, with huge numbers of French professionals now living in England and working in France!

Read more: http://www.spurs.vitalfootball.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=38262&posts=14#ixzz2sdHxrxAK


Brilliant! let's tax them!
 
ST2 - 7/2/2014 10:58

their is almost a wholesale migration out of France to the SE now, with huge numbers of French professionals now living in England and working in France!

Read more: http://www.spurs.vitalfootball.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=38262&posts=14#ixzz2sdHxrxAK


Brilliant! let's tax them!

LOL!!

I suspect we might be, just a damn sight less than the French government is...

:10: :17:
 
Prime minister David Cameron angered the French last month when he said he would "roll out the red carpet" to wealthy French citizens and firms who wanted move out and pay their taxes in Britain.

He told the B20 business summit in Mexico in June: "I think it's wrong to have a completely uncompetitive top rate of tax.

"If the French go ahead with a 75 per cent top rate of tax we will roll out the red carpet and welcome more French businesses to Britain and they can pay tax in Britain and pay for our health service and schools and everything else."


Since this report was first filed, the 75% top tax rate has been confirmed after a court challenge and it is now estimated that over 10,000 French people have bought homes and now work in London and the south east, and around 1000 businesses have moved operations to London.

The exodus to other countries such as Switzerland, Italy, Belgium and even Spain is now accelerating. No one as yet knows what this flight will do to tax' receipts, but if it follows the devastating downwards trend of foreign investment in France then the impact will result in a huge increase in French government borrowing or Hollande will now have to face reality and bring in austerity measures that will be far more severe than ever previously contemplated. "

Frances' loss, our gain.....but it's absolute evidence that following their lead simply isn't smart.
 
The balancing act of taxation by any nation is difficult. There are factors that influence this problem. Some of these influences cause the problem. I have posted this before but it really is relevant. It is worth taking the time to view this video if these important issues really do matter to you.

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