Only in America... | Page 3 | Vital Football

Only in America...

hulloutpost

Vital Football Hero
#41
Notty, I didn't ask you about self defence (looting and burning of random properties all over a nation?) but I did ask you if retaliatory violence and murder are a justifiable solution to the undeniable injustice and racism in America. Is that something you are prepared to put on the record?
Please re-visit my posts and show me where I have expressed anything other than complete undeniable acceptance that the USA has generations of unsolved, vile racism and the killing of a black man in these specific circumstances is inexcusable on any level. Clearly your and my own definition of racism are very different. I still condemn violence as neither acceptable or a solution to that racism.
 

hulloutpost

Vital Football Hero
#42
If it's kill or be killed then why not? The alternative is they try and enact change from within a society that refuses to contemplate it and has refused since the last 70 years or so and watch them and their friends be gunned down in ever increasing numbers while the authorities shield the perpetrators from any repercussions.

I thank you for your honesty. Our views on violence would appear to be diametrically opposed but at least we can draw a line there.
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
#43
Notty, I didn't ask you about self defence (looting and burning of random properties all over a nation?) but I did ask you if retaliatory violence and murder are a justifiable solution to the undeniable injustice and racism in America. Is that something you are prepared to put on the record?
Please re-visit my posts and show me where I have expressed anything other than complete undeniable acceptance that the USA has generations of unsolved, vile racism and the killing of a black man in these specific circumstances is inexcusable on any level. Clearly your and my own definition of racism are very different. I still condemn violence as neither acceptable or a solution to that racism.
Fantastic. So I assume that if a state say, decided to round up everyone of a particular ethnicity and execute them in, say, gad chambers you would still say that they should not resist violently?

You're a racist apllogist without the balls to admit it.
 

Sincilbanks

Vital 1st Team Regular
#44
"I thank you for your honesty. Our views on violence would appear to be diametrically opposed but at least we can draw a line there."

Let me ask you a couple of questions then in return.
Were the coloured people of South Africa justified in perpetrating violence and murder to overthrow the white regime there?

What about the people of Rumania when they overthrew Ceaucescu were they justified?

What about the Chinese people in Tianamen Square, were they justified in perpetrating violence and murder there?
 

hulloutpost

Vital Football Hero
#45
Fantastic. So I assume that if a state say, decided to round up everyone of a particular ethnicity and execute them in, say, gad chambers you would still say that they should not resist violently?

You're a racist apllogist without the balls to admit it.
I don't see what that has got to do with the current debate but for the record I believe that dealing with Hitler was absolutely necessary.
Specifically though Notty do you believe that looting, arson, assault and murder are acceptable responses (any of them) on random unconnected victims in response to the inexcusable killing of a black man?
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
#46
I don't see what that has got to do with the current debate but for the record I believe that dealing with Hitler was absolutely necessary.
Specifically though Notty do you believe that looting, arson, assault and murder are acceptable responses (any of them) on random unconnected victims in response to the inexcusable killing of a black man?
What do you think black people should do about being executed by racist white cops in the US?

I'll happily answer your question when you answer mine.

Until you do, I'll assume you're a racist who is happy for black people to be executed by racist white cops.
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
#47
Wait! So Hitler needed to opposed by all means necessary but systemic racist violence in the US shouldn't be?!

I'm utterly baffled.
 

hulloutpost

Vital Football Hero
#48
"I thank you for your honesty. Our views on violence would appear to be diametrically opposed but at least we can draw a line there."

Let me ask you a couple of questions then in return.
Were the coloured people of South Africa justified in perpetrating violence and murder to overthrow the white regime there?

What about the people of Rumania when they overthrew Ceaucescu were they justified?

What about the Chinese people in Tianamen Square, were they justified in perpetrating violence and murder there?
Good questions. I don't believe that the the violence in South Africa was justified, my opinion is that the world had made SA a pariah state and it was that which resolved the apartheid system.

Ceacescu was undeniably sadly resolved by violence which to me was regrettable. The issue for me there is that the world failed to take the necessary meaningful sanctions that could have resolved the problem post Communism. Even more disgracefully Ceacescu was patronised by countries including the UK which added to the problem.

I wasn't aware that the Tianamen protesters killed people? but on the basis 'if they did' then no, as it must have had had no more impact on the Chinese state than peaceful civil resistance would (none). Admittedly how you achieve regime change or improving human rights against a country as powerful as China by sanctions is a different ball game than say SA and therein lies a problem. I'm not advocating WW III by the way. Again I can't offer a solution to human rights abuse in China but violence at Tianamen Square ultimately didn't achieve that goal either.
 

hulloutpost

Vital Football Hero
#49
Wait! So Hitler needed to opposed by all means necessary but systemic racist violence in the US shouldn't be?!

I'm utterly baffled.
In America there are laws to prevent people being murdered by the police, the laws aren't the problem it is the abject failure to implement them that is the issue and what needs changing.

In the case of Germany, Hitler passed laws to kill the Jews and others whilst simultaneously invading sovereign nations. I'll leave the not so subtle differences there.
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
#50
Good questions. I don't believe that the the violence in South Africa was justified, my opinion is that the world had made SA a pariah state and it was that which resolved the apartheid system.

Ceacescu was undeniably sadly resolved by violence which to me was regrettable. The issue for me there is that the world failed to take the necessary meaningful sanctions that could have resolved the problem post Communism. Even more disgracefully Ceacescu was patronised by countries including the UK which added to the problem.

I wasn't aware that the Tianamen protesters killed people? but on the basis 'if they did' then no, as it must have had had no more impact on the Chinese state than peaceful civil resistance would (none). Admittedly how you achieve regime change or improving human rights against a country as powerful as China by sanctions is a different ball game than say SA and therein lies a problem. I'm not advocating WW III by the way. Again I can't offer a solution to human rights abuse in China but violence at Tianamen Square ultimately didn't achieve that goal either.
Naive twaddle. Without the ANC nothing would have changed in South Africa
. And btw the Tory government under Thatcher who you no doubt supported opposed removing apartheid.
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
#51
In America there are laws to prevent people being murdered by the police, the laws aren't the problem it is the abject failure to implement them that is the issue and what needs changing.

In the case of Germany, Hitler passed laws to kill the Jews and others whilst simultaneously invading sovereign nations. I'll leave the not so subtle differences there.
So why do you think black people keep getting executed by white cops? Could there, perhaps, be a systemic racist problem in US society?

I mean how fucking naieve are you?

Or maybe you're just a cynical racist.
 

hulloutpost

Vital Football Hero
#52
Naive twaddle. Without the ANC nothing would have changed in South Africa
. And btw the Tory government under Thatcher who you no doubt supported opposed removing apartheid.
We disagree on The ANC then and ultimately it was the negative world reaction to SA including Britain that IMO led to the end of apartheid. How long it took and the necessary changes in attitude along the way from various governments to implement it is another issue.
 

hulloutpost

Vital Football Hero
#53
So why do you think black people keep getting executed by white cops? Could there, perhaps, be a systemic racist problem in US society? (Er yes, I've been saying that)

I mean how fucking naieve are you? (See above)

Or maybe you're just a cynical racist. (Evidence?)
 

Sincilbanks

Vital 1st Team Regular
#54
Good questions. I don't believe that the the violence in South Africa was justified, my opinion is that the world had made SA a pariah state and it was that which resolved the apartheid system.

Ceacescu was undeniably sadly resolved by violence which to me was regrettable. The issue for me there is that the world failed to take the necessary meaningful sanctions that could have resolved the problem post Communism. Even more disgracefully Ceacescu was patronised by countries including the UK which added to the problem.

I wasn't aware that the Tianamen protesters killed people? but on the basis 'if they did' then no, as it must have had had no more impact on the Chinese state than peaceful civil resistance would (none). Admittedly how you achieve regime change or improving human rights against a country as powerful as China by sanctions is a different ball game than say SA and therein lies a problem. I'm not advocating WW III by the way. Again I can't offer a solution to human rights abuse in China but violence at Tianamen Square ultimately didn't achieve that goal either.
I didn't ask if it resolved the problem, I asked if it was justified?
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
#55
Anyway, what do you think black people in the US should do about being executed by racist white cops?

Until I have your answer I'll assume you're a racist apllogist.
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
#56
We disagree on The ANC then and ultimately it was the negative world reaction to SA including Britain that IMO led to the end of apartheid. How long it took and the necessary changes in attitude along the way from various governments to implement it is another issue.
Hugely naive and revisionist. It was only because of the ANC and associated anti-racist and anti-arpartheid movements in multiple countries that the racist SA regime was removed.
 

NottyImp

Vital Football Legend
#57
And the Tory government of Thatcher that you no doubt supported also supported apartheid. And the murderous fascist regime of Pinochet. But you're opposed to violence, right?
 

Sincilbanks

Vital 1st Team Regular
#58
In America there are laws to prevent people being murdered by the police, the laws aren't the problem it is the abject failure to implement them that is the issue and what needs changing.

In the case of Germany, Hitler passed laws to kill the Jews and others whilst simultaneously invading sovereign nations. I'll leave the not so subtle differences there.
What do you think the chances of those laws being enacted are when the National Security Advisor of the US has this as his history?
 

hulloutpost

Vital Football Hero
#59
What do you think black people should do about being executed by racist white cops in the US?

I'll happily answer your question when you answer mine.

Until you do, I'll assume you're a racist who is happy for black people to be executed by racist white cops.
I don't as admitted have an answer that guarantees success but how about civil non violent resistance causing disruption to specific state and national organisations/institutes (as opposed to private businesses) for a start. I'm sure if enough people put their efforts into prolonged co-ordinated action they could come up with some directed creative solutions that would financially hurt the establishment and that I am confident would get their attention more than the revenge killing of a cop or Phil Bloggs having his liquor store burned down - The establishment don't care about the cop or Phil Bloggs any more than the black man.
As part of the long game civil disobedience has to be backed up by unrelenting pressure via the democratic process. Yes black people are a minority but in many areas they are not and if enough people sympathetic to this cause can be elected they can cause disruption and block effective government even if they cannot immediately implement change (William Wilberforce being a prime example).
What I do know is that violence has been tried many times and has failed (Rodney King riots for example) with innocent people suffering violence as a consequence. What was that thing Danny Cowley used to say about doing the same thing and insanity. Violence is no more a quick fix than civil disobedience or democracy are to this deep seated problem but unlike the other options violence causes untold misery to innocent people who the establishment also do not give two hoots about. It's America so target the state money not people if you want a reaction.

Specifically though Notty do you believe that looting, arson, assault and murder are acceptable responses (any of them) on random unconnected victims in response to the inexcusable killing of a black man?
 

hulloutpost

Vital Football Hero
#60
I have been politely asked via the open forum to condemn racist white cop violence against black people. As I have done this consistently throughout the thread I am happy to re-iterate that I condemn racist white cop violence against black people.
Meanwhile Notty do you believe that looting, arson, assault and murder are acceptable responses (any of them) on random unconnected victims in response to the inexcusable killing of a black man?