new FA BAME coaches scheme - n/g | Vital Football

new FA BAME coaches scheme - n/g

wxgill

Vital Squad Member
#1
The FA have rightly come up with this idea:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53221680

This is positive action.

But i also read that 33% of the players in the PL and FL are BAME but only 20% of the UK is BAME.

In order to create this fairness everybody is after do me need 13% more white players as they are currently being under-represented in professional football?

Why is it ok to get more BAME coaches / managers but not tackle the other inequality? Or is it ok to have things disproportionate?
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#2
The FA have rightly come up with this idea:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53221680

This is positive action.

But i also read that 33% of the players in the PL and FL are BAME but only 20% of the UK is BAME.

In order to create this fairness everybody is after do me need 13% more white players as they are currently being under-represented in professional football?

Why is it ok to get more BAME coaches / managers but not tackle the other inequality? Or is it ok to have things disproportionate?
C'mon Wx, don't you be a Gradgrind too.

Ok, so it's not as simple as saying that the numbers and the proportions don't matter at all. Of course they do, if there wasn't inequity in the numbers and proportions then there'd be no issue. But neither is just about the numbers. There's more to it than that.

And even if it were just about the numbers, how meaningful are your statistics anyway? You're comparing different things; the % of BAME players in the PL with the % of BAME British citizens (or was % of British population?). Either way, you've not taken into consideration the % of PL players who are foreign nationals. What % of those players are BAME?

Anyway, as I said, all that is just shite. If we really want positive change and equality of opportunity in society then it has to be about the spirit. Let's win people's hearts and minds and force structural change that will enable proper equality of opportunity and fairness in society. This isn't, or shouldn't be about ticking boxes or fulfilling quotas, it has to be done with the right heart, the right mindset, the right spirit.

And do you know what, I reckon that if that could be achieved the numbers and the proportions would work themselves out naturally. Only thing is it wouldn't be all neat and symmetrically ordered the way a dogmatic Gradgrind might insist it should be. There would be order, but it would be a natural and chaotic order.

Free your mind and follow your heart.
 
Last edited:

wxgill

Vital Squad Member
#3
C'mon Wx, don't you be a Gradgrind too.

Ok, so it's not as simple as saying that the numbers and the proportions don't matter at all. Of course they do, if there wasn't inequity in the numbers and proportions then there'd be no issue. But neither is just about the numbers. There's more to it than that.

And even if it were just about the numbers, how meaningful are your statistics anyway? You're comparing different things; the % of BAME players in the PL with the % of BAME British citizens (or was % of British population?). Either way, you've not taken into consideration the % of PL players who are foreign nationals. What % of those players are BAME?

Anyway, as I said, all that is just shite. If we really want positive change and equality of opportunity in society then it has to be about the spirit. Let's win people's hearts and minds and force structural change that will enable proper equality of opportunity and fairness in society. This isn't, or shouldn't be about ticking boxes or fulfilling quotas, it has to be done with the right heart, the right mindset, the right spirit.

And do you know what, I reckon that if that could be achieved the numbers and the proportions would work themselves out naturally. Only thing is it wouldn't be all neat and symmetrically ordered the way a dogmatic Gradgrind might insist it should be. There would be order, but it would be a natural and chaotic order.

Free your mind and follow your heart.
I prefer to look at things in number terms then you know for sure you have fairness,
 

nitram77

Vital Squad Member
#4
C'mon Wx, don't you be a Gradgrind too.

Ok, so it's not as simple as saying that the numbers and the proportions don't matter at all. Of course they do, if there wasn't inequity in the numbers and proportions then there'd be no issue. But neither is just about the numbers. There's more to it than that.

And even if it were just about the numbers, how meaningful are your statistics anyway? You're comparing different things; the % of BAME players in the PL with the % of BAME British citizens (or was % of British population?). Either way, you've not taken into consideration the % of PL players who are foreign nationals. What % of those players are BAME?

Anyway, as I said, all that is just shite. If we really want positive change and equality of opportunity in society then it has to be about the spirit. Let's win people's hearts and minds and force structural change that will enable proper equality of opportunity and fairness in society. This isn't, or shouldn't be about ticking boxes or fulfilling quotas, it has to be done with the right heart, the right mindset, the right spirit.

And do you know what, I reckon that if that could be achieved the numbers and the proportions would work themselves out naturally. Only thing is it wouldn't be all neat and symmetrically ordered the way a dogmatic Gradgrind might insist it should be. There would be order, but it would be a natural and chaotic order.

Free your mind and follow your heart.
If numbers mean nothing, how do we know that things aren't already fair and don't need touching at all.
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#6
If numbers mean nothing, how do we know that things aren't already fair and don't need touching at all.
I didn't say that they meant nothing. Re-read my post, nitram, I address this in my second sentence.

The numbers and proportions are very important but they're not everything.

Achieving mathematical equality will not solve the real issue, it would be very superficial.

To solve the real issues we need to employ imagination, compassion and empathy. The revolution must happen in our minds and then everything else will follow. We are not machines and society's problems cannot be solved by algorithms or equations.

Wx says that, "look at things in number terms then [we] know for sure [we] have fairness", but is that really so? I'd say that the numbers provide a good indication and mustn't be ignored but that they don't provide certainty of fairness.

I also think that if we were to simply achieve mathematical 'equality' we wouldn't necessarily have solved the problems of prejudice and racism. However, if we were to solve the problems of prejudice, discrimination and racism, equality of opportunity would follow as naturally as day follows night.

It's a subtle point that I'm trying to make and if I'm failing abysmally and people just aint understanding what I'm trying to get at I can only apologise for not being more clear.

If anybody has caught my drift and can explain better than me, I'd really welcome that!
 

alphabet_king

Vital 1st Team Regular
#7
I didn't say that they meant nothing. Re-read my post, nitram, I address this in my second sentence.

The numbers and proportions are very important but they're not everything.

Achieving mathematical equality will not solve the real issue, it would be very superficial.

To solve the real issues we need to employ imagination, compassion and empathy. The revolution must happen in our minds and then everything else will follow. We are not machines and society's problems cannot be solved by algorithms or equations.

Wx says that, "look at things in number terms then [we] know for sure [we] have fairness", but is that really so? I'd say that the numbers provide a good indication and mustn't be ignored but that they don't provide certainty of fairness.

I also think that if we were to simply achieve mathematical 'equality' we wouldn't necessarily have solved the problems of prejudice and racism. However, if we were to solve the problems of prejudice, discrimination and racism, equality of opportunity would follow as naturally as day follows night.

It's a subtle point that I'm trying to make and if I'm failing abysmally and people just aint understanding what I'm trying to get at I can only apologise for not being more clear.

If anybody has caught my drift and can explain better than me, I'd really welcome that!
Im pretty sure i get what you mean. It sounds like an argument against positive discriminarion, e.g. the rooney rule. I guess what you are saying is that if we solve the problem of conscious and unconscious racism then we wont need any sort of formal positive discrimination. Would that be right?
 

shotshy

Vital 1st Team Regular
#8
It’s impossible to implement because the vast majority of football managers jobs are never advertised, at all levels.
How many candidates were there for the last Gills vacancy?
Exactly one fat bloke .
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#9
Im pretty sure i get what you mean. It sounds like an argument against positive discriminarion, e.g. the rooney rule. I guess what you are saying is that if we solve the problem of conscious and unconscious racism then we wont need any sort of formal positive discrimination. Would that be right?
Kind of, though it's not really an argument for or against positive discrimination. I think there are times when that might be appropriate and times when it isn't.

But yes, if we can free ourselves from all racism, conscious and unconscious, and really move forward with love and unity then we could achieve far more than any kind of positive discrimination or other tick-box exercises could achieve on their own.
 

nitram77

Vital Squad Member
#10
The FA have it within their power to ensure that there are BAME applicants in the refereeing/linesman category, how many BAME officials do we ever see.
The simple truth is that all the time we have to worry about fairness, it means we are still failing, until we employ on the basis of best person for the job, without reference to ethnicity there will always be claims of discrimination.
 

MedwayModernist

Vital Squad Member
#11
I prefer to look at things in number terms then you know for sure you have fairness,
Numbers without context can prove anything WX.

For example, nine football hoolies beating up an innocent away fan minding his own business is clearly wrong, but if you surveyed those involved, 90% of them would have enjoyed the experience after all.

The context here is that equality of opportunity is required. Footballers themselves enjoy equality of opportunity, because everybody in the world wants to find the next messi or ronaldo, and does not give a hoot about what race/religion/colour/creed they are, and if BAME players are better represented, then it's probably just be the case that BAME individuals are better at football.
 

ThreeSixes

Vital 1st Team Regular
#13
I don't like the use of the acronym BAME for this. It isn't AME that anyone is interested in helping, it is B (same as BLACK lives matter)
 

ThreeSixes

Vital 1st Team Regular
#14
The context here is that equality of opportunity is required. Footballers themselves enjoy equality of opportunity, because everybody in the world wants to find the next messi or ronaldo, and does not give a hoot about what race/religion/colour/creed they are, and if BAME players are better represented, then it's probably just be the case that BAME individuals are better at football.
And probably white individuals are better at managing / coaching? Or probably not??
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#16
I don't like the use of the acronym BAME for this. It isn't AME that anyone is interested in helping, it is B (same as BLACK lives matter)
What are you talking about? Who isn't interested in helping Asians and other |minority ethnic groups? Where have you got this spurious notion from?

Your comments aren't helpful. Consciously or otherwise you're merely creating more division. I thought you thought that all lives matter, or is that just a convenient thing to say when attacking a movement that strives for such a reality?
 

MedwayModernist

Vital Squad Member
#17
And probably white individuals are better at managing / coaching? Or probably not??
If we were in the position where there is equality of opportunity, or close to it, then yeh that'd be the case.

However it's pretty clear that we don't have equality of opportunity.

It also feeds in to a pretty horrible stereotype, that is still prevalent in american sports, particularly the NFL, where BAME (mostly black guys) players are considered amazing athletes, but can't be "trusted" to play in the thinking positions like quarterback, much less coach teams.
 

ThreeSixes

Vital 1st Team Regular
#18
What are you talking about? Who isn't interested in helping Asians and other |minority ethnic groups? Where have you got this spurious notion from?
I've never seen anyone saying there weren't enough Asian coaches / managers in professional UK football? If you have, can you provide details please?
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#19
I've never seen anyone saying there weren't enough Asian coaches / managers in professional UK football? If you have, can you provide details please?
Sorry, I wasn't talking specifically about football management but society in general. Maybe that was wrong of me.

Perhaps the reason that there isn't as much talk about Asians and other ethnic minorities being under represented in the coaching and managerial roles is because they're not yet even represented on the playing field. This issue has attracted attention. Here's just one article on the subject:

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/...hy-are-there-so-few-british-asian-footballers