Mormons are Making America Great Again

BodyButter

BodyButter

Vital Football Legend
I came across this very interesting article about how Utah has the highest rate of social mobility and how Mormon values of compassionate conservatism help alleviate poverty and encourage people to help themselves.

This isn't the religion thread and I know a couple of our very best forum members are Mormons so let's try to keep this one on topic.

I should warn you that the article is quite long. If you aren't interested in reading it, this thread isn't for you.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-28/how-utah-keeps-the-american-dream-alive
 
These Mormans sound interesting but what about the Mormons?


 
Being pedantic, it's "Mormon".
I'm not going to comment at this stage as I have fairly set views on this (strangely enough!) so would be interested in what others might want to say.
 
BBJ - 21/11/2017 01:27

Being pedantic, it's "Mormon".
I'm not going to comment at this stage as I have fairly set views on this (strangely enough!) so would be interested in what others might want to say.
Click to expand...

I started the thread because I want to hear your views on it. All religions are subject to ridicule these days but smaller Christian religions get it more than most. I have very little idea what Mormons believe in and the focus is always on the more obscure beliefs and practices. This article focuses on the great impact that the Mormon church is having in Utah and not just on Mormons.
 
There is a huge push for 3 things within the Church that I believe are core to this culture, education, self reliance and family values.

The Church runs programs that suport the first 2 including heavily subsidised schools that are open to members and none members alike (all enrolled will have to take part in religeous classes too, so it tends to be members that dominate enrolment numbers).

We have courses in self reliance in our local chapel, again though, there is an intrinsic link with spiritual/religeous aspects so participance is, again, dominated by members but again, the classes are open to all.

 
Villan Of The North - 21/11/2017 01:48

There is a huge push for 3 things within the Church that I believe are core to this culture, education, self reliance and family values.

The Church runs programs that suport the first 2 including heavily subsidised schools that are open to members and none members alike (all enrolled will have to take part in religeous classes too, so it tends to be members that dominate enrolment numbers).

We have courses in self reliance in our local chapel, again though, there is an intrinsic link with spiritual/religeous aspects so participance is, again, dominated by members but again, the classes are open to all.
Click to expand...

What kind of things do they teach in self reliance class?
 
Whilst good news on the surface, you do need to look deeper on issues like this.


"But his successor, Brigham Young, who led the Latter-Day Saints to Utah, excluded black followers from the priesthood (which is generally open to every Mormon man), keeping them out of the center of ecclesiastical life. The doctrine did not change until 1978, and the church’s racist past still lingers.

"Utah’s willingness to help, and its ability to help, may arise from its homogeneity?—?a trait that won’t be exported to the diverse nation at large."
 
BodyButter - 20/11/2017 16:57

Villan Of The North - 21/11/2017 01:48

There is a huge push for 3 things within the Church that I believe are core to this culture, education, self reliance and family values.

The Church runs programs that suport the first 2 including heavily subsidised schools that are open to members and none members alike (all enrolled will have to take part in religeous classes too, so it tends to be members that dominate enrolment numbers).

We have courses in self reliance in our local chapel, again though, there is an intrinsic link with spiritual/religeous aspects so participance is, again, dominated by members but again, the classes are open to all.
Click to expand...

What kind of things do they teach in self reliance class?
Click to expand...

https://www.lds.org/topics/pef-self-reliance/manuals-and-videos?lang=eng&old=true#my-foundation

 
HeathfieldRoad1874 - 21/11/2017 02:00

Whilst good news on the surface, you do need to look deeper on issues like this.


"But his successor, Brigham Young, who led the Latter-Day Saints to Utah, excluded black followers from the priesthood (which is generally open to every Mormon man), keeping them out of the center of ecclesiastical life. The doctrine did not change until 1978, and the church’s racist past still lingers.

"Utah’s willingness to help, and its ability to help, may arise from its homogeneity?—?a trait that won’t be exported to the diverse nation at large."
Click to expand...

I wouldn't imagine that Young's ideas were out of sync with the the general population at the time.

I don't believe that the Mormon church is perfect or 'the correct religion' or anything like that. I just found it very interesting that Utah has had such success because of their religious beliefs where so many other states are failing to deliver on The American Dream.
 
It's just that it's a lot easier when everyone is the same race and colour. It's easier to help somebody that looks like you.

It would be interesting to see these ideas implemented in a diversified area, but I doubt you could get them to agree on doing so!!!!

Denmark is still the gold standard, so the methods they've been using seem more useful in the real World.
 
HeathfieldRoad1874 - 20/11/2017 18:28

It's just that it's a lot easier when everyone is the same race and colour. It's easier to help somebody that looks like you.

It would be interesting to see these ideas implemented in a diversified area, but I doubt you could get them to agree on doing so!!!!

Denmark is still the gold standard, so the methods they've been using seem more useful in the real World.
Click to expand...

By that logic there should be some Afican or Asian states rivaling Utah. You've fallen i to the trap of making it about a single issue and it's clearly more complicated.

 
I hope I didn't fall into any trap. I was just quoting part of the link, and commenting on it. If you look, I haven't said their methods don't work, just that it's not definitive proof, because conditions around other parts of the World wouldn't be the same.

African and Asian states haven't tried to implement these programs, so no It's not guaranteed they could rival their results.

I'd be happy to give it a go, as they go to great lengths to say it's not a religious prerequisite. I'm just not sure other, less tolerant, people would be prepared to engage as necessary.
 
HeathfieldRoad1874 - 20/11/2017 17:28

Denmark is still the gold standard, so the methods they've been using seem more useful in the real World.
Click to expand...

As you know, our daughter lives in Denmark and, yes, it's a country that I'm fond of but I would not particularly like to live there.
I wouldn't like to live in Utah either.
What both places have in common is, in their respective views, that there is only one right way to do anything (the Danish way or the Utah Mormon way).
 
:1: :1: :1:

The wisdom of BBJ. What would we do without it.

Who's to say the measure of upward mobility is a useful one anyway. There are jobs that need doing, so having everyone in the top quartile does what? Pay everyone the same? Isn't that Communism?
 
Trekker - 21/11/2017 08:11

I didn’t believe in Mermaids until I saw Daryl Hannah :86:
Click to expand...

Which brings the conversation right back to Denmark.

 

Attachments

  • den-lille-havfrue-201110-1.jpg
    den-lille-havfrue-201110-1.jpg
    97.1 KB · Views: 0
I think the big point about the Utah story is that, historically, Mormons have a culture of being industrious, it's a part of the entire group's ethos.

I find Heath's comment about the need for people in all jobs particularly important as I feel that in countries like the UK and the USA, where capitalism has been allowed to run more freely than the Scandinavian countries, jobs that require less education are seen as lower status and as such pay significantly less. In the more socialist countries the pay gap is far less (although it does exist) and as such there is not the same difference in social standing, these positions are appreciated as important cogs in society, a brick-layer will easily mix with teachers and lawyers over here in a way that is far more natural than in the UK and USA. I wonder if this contributes to Denmark's "social mobility", the fact that they don't necessarily see it as social mobility, in fact it's just natural for people to pursue the carreer path that interests them most, regardless of their socio-economic background, due to the free education at point of delivery and egalitarian student loan systems.

 
Another point that has struck me is that you very seldom meet a Utah Mormon who does not have Scandinavian ancestry. (The current Church President, Thomas S Monson, has Swedish roots and the senior apostle, Russell M Nelson, has two Danish greatgrandparents.)
So perhaps there is a link there with the Nordic inclination to value work in itself coupled with an inclination towards helping others?
Certainly there is a greater sense of egalitarianism in both Denmark as a country and in Mormonism as a way of life.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.