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McCanns

valenciagill said:
Same thing
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How can it be the same thing? Police are merely making enquiries at this stage. In Gel Boy's case, court proceedings had started; he contravened a court order that disallowed reporting on such trials while proceedings are ongoing.
 
RotherhitheGill said:
Really feel sorry for Madeline, no child from any background deserves to be murdered/abducted or die young (from whatever cause), but I have no time for the parents, if anything they should have been done for child neglect. As stated earlier, had this been a working class child the story would have died years ago.

The parents action/inaction have left them years of remorse, which is disproportionate to the original act of leaving their children alone, but this was an unseen/unintended consequence of their actions.

Hope that the abductor/killer is caught, not just in this case but all cases as they do not deserve freedom. However, the amount of time,money and media exposure given to this particular case does seem disproportionate.
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I have often had similar thoughts, Rotherhithe.

Indeed, after reading this thread I started remembering that there was another case of a child going missing around the same time as Madelaine McCann did. I seemed to recall that it was a working class kid but I couldn't remember much more. Not even if it was a boy or a girl, or whether or not they'd been found, dead or alive.

Anyway, just had a look. Her name was Shannon Matthews. Dunno if anyone does remember the case, or indeed the outcome. It was a working class family but it was all a set up job by the mum, her boyfriend and his uncle in an effort to scam money. Shannon was 'kidnapped' and then 'found'. They got done for kidnapping, false imprisonment, child neglect and perverting the course of justice.

So it maybe turned out to not be such a good example as I'd thought it might be!

Having said that, at the time of the two disappearances the media wouldn't have known that the Matthews disappearance was a fraud. This article briefly deals with the class issue:
https://www.thegryphon.co.uk/2019/04/05/the-classism-involved-in-madeleine-mccanns-disappearance/
 
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Buddha said:
I have often had similar thoughts, Rotherhithe.

Indeed, after reading this thread I started remembering that there was another case of a child going missing around the same time as Madelaine McCann did. I seemed to recall that was a working class kid but I couldn't remember much more. Not even if it was a boy or a girl, or whether or not they'd been found, dead or alive.

Anyway, just had a look. Her name was Shannon Matthews. Dunno if anyone does remember the case, or indeed the outcome. It was a working class family but it was all a set up job by the mum, her boyfriend and his uncle in an effort to scam money. Shannon was 'kidnapped' and then 'found'. They got done for kidnapping, false imprisonment, child neglect and perverting the course of justice.

So it maybe turned out to not be such a good example as I'd thought it might be!

Having said that, at the time of the two disappearances the media wouldn't have known that the Matthews disappearance was a fraud. This article briefly deals with the class issue:
https://www.thegryphon.co.uk/2019/04/05/the-classism-involved-in-madeleine-mccanns-disappearance/
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I think its a great example bud. As the shannons were from much 'poorer' backgrounds, and the media got well behind the cause, just as they did for macann. Therefore shows that rhe media does not necessarily reserve their attention to just the middle class, as some on this thread are claiming.
 
alphabet_king said:
I think its a great example bud. As the shannons were from much 'poorer' backgrounds, and the media got well behind the cause, just as they did for macann. Therefore shows that the media does not necessarily reserve their attention to just the middle class, as some on this thread are claiming.
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Read the article I linked, AK.
 
Disclaimer - If you`ve no interest in topics around legal proceedings please don`t bother reading the following, it will bore you.


Following on from chat about contempt and justice proceedings:

Assuming there are grounds for prosecuting the detained German male in relation to Madeleine McCann, it will be interesting to see where any proceedings actually take place. The matter of Territoriality has not yet, as far as we know, been determined. Mostly, because, as far as we know, the precise nature of any offences committed has not yet been established. If the offence turns out to be murder the Territoriality aspect would likely impact the most. This is probably the reason that wide efforts are urgently being made to trace criminal associates/witnesses (?) the rationale being that in addition to gaining more evidence, information leading to the discovery of a body would likely establish where the crime/s (if it was murder) occurred - this would provide clarity on Territoriality.

Due to the cross border complexion of this case which, as it stands and as far as we know, proceedings against the German for offences relating to Medeleine, could go through the German courts or, indeed, through the UK or Portuguese courts.

There is an organisation, based in The Hague (Eurojust), which provides assistance and guidance where there are international conflicts of exercise of jurisdiction in criminal proceedings. Wouldn`t be surprised to learn that its party to current consultation.

Law Enforcement and Prosecuting authorities from Germany, Portugal and the UK are no doubt co-operating and well into their process discussions already, but until police know exactly what they are dealing with, ie what crime/s have occurred, the choice of which court system the matter goes through may not yet be clear. Regardless of the UK`s exit from the EU, many of the deciding guidelines for jurisdiction revolve around Human Rights articles.

At this point, Germany is probably the most likely venue for any hearings, though if there are major developments in Portugal, that could change. I suspect that the UK is the least likely venue - as the UK may be perceived as less likely to be as impartial as other jurisdictions. A harder sentencing policy in the UK could also influence a decision.

Will be interesting to see how this unfolds. As, I believe, there are one or two on here who are no strangers to legal processes (in the nicest possible sense), I`ll ask - assuming there is a trial relating to a German national and Madeleine McCann, where`s it most likely to take place ?
 
alphabet_king said:
I think its a great example bud. As the shannons were from much 'poorer' backgrounds, and the media got well behind the cause, just as they did for macann. Therefore shows that rhe media does not necessarily reserve their attention to just the middle class, as some on this thread are claiming.
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Yes the media got behind the Shannons case which quickly unravelled but we're not talking about the initial coverage of cases, we're talking about the longevity of coverage, amount of resources, money and profile of the McCanns case 13 years on. I'd guess there are plenty of cases of missing children from the 90's that are not even mentioned in the press these days but aren't closed cases, so why are the McCanns so special and still having public resources invested in their case?

As I've said they employed Clarence Mitchell (someone with media connections and knowledge of how the media 'works') as family spokesperson fairly early on in the search for Madeleine, something I doubt many 'normal' families would be been able to afford to do. Yes this may have lead to some negative and untrue reporting and intrusion but as they say there's sometimes no such thing as bad publicity if it keeps the profile in the public eye.
 
The McCanns used their connections, their positions and their superior education and resources to try and find their child. They are middle class. As my children used to say when young: big wow!

The media were immediately drawn to the story because the missing child was photogenic and there were appealing photos and footage. The public lapped the story up for whatever reason and once the ball had started rolling it was never going to stop. In my opinion that had nothing to do with class.

Regrettably people are at once drawn to such stories and, at the same time, interrogate and judge the parents' behaviour mercilessly. There must be psychological reasons driving all this; perhaps it's an unwitting defence mechanism. If we can somehow blame the parents and convince ourselves we would not have done what they did, we are safe from such a tragedy.

A small child was abducted by a practised and devious predator and her parents have been to hell and back. They should never have had to endure the villification, blame, negative publicity and doubt, which has been their lot. I hope they and their family find peace.
 
LancsGordoRoad said:
Disclaimer - If you`ve no interest in topics around legal proceedings please don`t bother reading the following, it will bore you.


Following on from chat about contempt and justice proceedings:

Assuming there are grounds for prosecuting the detained German male in relation to Madeleine McCann, it will be interesting to see where any proceedings actually take place. The matter of Territoriality has not yet, as far as we know, been determined. Mostly, because, as far as we know, the precise nature of any offences committed has not yet been established. If the offence turns out to be murder the Territoriality aspect would likely impact the most. This is probably the reason that wide efforts are urgently being made to trace criminal associates/witnesses (?) the rationale being that in addition to gaining more evidence, information leading to the discovery of a body would likely establish where the crime/s (if it was murder) occurred - this would provide clarity on Territoriality.

Due to the cross border complexion of this case which, as it stands and as far as we know, proceedings against the German for offences relating to Medeleine, could go through the German courts or, indeed, through the UK or Portuguese courts.

There is an organisation, based in The Hague (Eurojust), which provides assistance and guidance where there are international conflicts of exercise of jurisdiction in criminal proceedings. Wouldn`t be surprised to learn that its party to current consultation.

Law Enforcement and Prosecuting authorities from Germany, Portugal and the UK are no doubt co-operating and well into their process discussions already, but until police know exactly what they are dealing with, ie what crime/s have occurred, the choice of which court system the matter goes through may not yet be clear. Regardless of the UK`s exit from the EU, many of the deciding guidelines for jurisdiction revolve around Human Rights articles.

At this point, Germany is probably the most likely venue for any hearings, though if there are major developments in Portugal, that could change. I suspect that the UK is the least likely venue - as the UK may be perceived as less likely to be as impartial as other jurisdictions. A harder sentencing policy in the UK could also influence a decision.

Will be interesting to see how this unfolds. As, I believe, there are one or two on here who are no strangers to legal processes (in the nicest possible sense), I`ll ask - assuming there is a trial relating to a German national and Madeleine McCann, where`s it most likely to take place ?
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Nice piece Lancs. As you know, we do not have 'Roman Law" so I don't know where the trial would be under their system. As far as I know, in England and Wales it would normally be the area where offence was committed. My guess would be Portugal.

I don't know how the DM article would impact over their systems but, as usual, it was typically reckless. These papers pretend to care but if they could get a few more sales they are happy to put cases at risk. They can then have a sensationalist headline about how ridiculous it is that the "guilty" are acquitted through technicalities. Double win for the scum.
 
jogills said:
The McCanns used their connections, their positions and their superior education and resources to try and find their child. They are middle class. As my children used to say when young: big wow!

The media were immediately drawn to the story because the missing child was photogenic and there were appealing photos and footage. The public lapped the story up for whatever reason and once the ball had started rolling it was never going to stop. In my opinion that had nothing to do with class.

Regrettably people are at once drawn to such stories and, at the same time, interrogate and judge the parents' behaviour mercilessly. There must be psychological reasons driving all this; perhaps it's an unwitting defence mechanism. If we can somehow blame the parents and convince ourselves we would not have done what they did, we are safe from such a tragedy.

A small child was abducted by a practised and devious predator and her parents have been to hell and back. They should never have had to endure the villification, blame, negative publicity and doubt, which has been their lot. I hope they and their family find peace.
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Some fair points but it was their class that helped get the ball rolling. I would have done the same btw.

They got dogs abuse and have been through hell. However, they can't escape the fact that they made a massive misjudgement in leaving 3 tiny children not properly supervised in a (for them) strange place. The first time my missus and I did that on holiday, my kids were 11 and 12 respectively (for a couple of hours in the afternoon).

I believe well over £10m has been spent on this. I'd guess we'd have virtually no funds for daily policing if every case got such attention.

I remember (vaguely) an NHS case some years ago when treatment was refused on cost/likelihood of success grounds and the public were whipped up. Hard decisions had to be made and the money no doubt saved several lives of others instead.

Some people say money shouldn't be a factor but they conveniently forget that at election time when low taxes are classic vote winning policy.
 
jogills said:
The McCanns used their connections, their positions and their superior education and resources to try and find their child. They are middle class. As my children used to say when young: big wow!

The media were immediately drawn to the story because the missing child was photogenic and there were appealing photos and footage. The public lapped the story up for whatever reason and once the ball had started rolling it was never going to stop. In my opinion that had nothing to do with class.

Regrettably people are at once drawn to such stories and, at the same time, interrogate and judge the parents' behaviour mercilessly. There must be psychological reasons driving all this; perhaps it's an unwitting defence mechanism. If we can somehow blame the parents and convince ourselves we would not have done what they did, we are safe from such a tragedy.

A small child was abducted by a practised and devious predator and her parents have been to hell and back. They should never have had to endure the villification, blame, negative publicity and doubt, which has been their lot. I hope they and their family find peace.
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Thanks for that jogills. When I was 4 my mum sent me round the corner from our house in Oxford road to a little shop in Napier road to get a couple of bits. She thought I was more grown up than I obviously was. Far worse than the McCanns

There was a whole drama series on the Shannon case.
 
jogills said:
The McCanns used their connections, their positions and their superior education and resources to try and find their child. They are middle class. As my children used to say when young: big wow!

The media were immediately drawn to the story because the missing child was photogenic and there were appealing photos and footage. The public lapped the story up for whatever reason and once the ball had started rolling it was never going to stop. In my opinion that had nothing to do with class.

Regrettably people are at once drawn to such stories and, at the same time, interrogate and judge the parents' behaviour mercilessly. There must be psychological reasons driving all this; perhaps it's an unwitting defence mechanism. If we can somehow blame the parents and convince ourselves we would not have done what they did, we are safe from such a tragedy.

A small child was abducted by a practised and devious predator and her parents have been to hell and back. They should never have had to endure the villification, blame, negative publicity and doubt, which has been their lot. I hope they and their family find peace.
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If you read through the whole episode of the McCann case and their whole holiday, Jo the parents actions were negligent and have lead to their suffering, all self inflicted, but whatever they've felt over the years, probably nothing compared to what that poor little girl went through. Yes it needed some sick twisted individual to create the scenario, but IMO the only sympathy handed out is to the poor innocent little girl who had no say in being left in an apartment with her siblings, while her parents socialised 100 metres away which enabled the whole case to happen.
 
Some fearful judgements, which belong in a world ruled by fear in my opinion. I make no comment on the exact behaviour of the McCanns at the time of the abduction but I will make a general one about being a parent. I do not believe there is a parent alive, who has completely shielded their child from every eventuality. If there is I suspect the child is now receiving help for mental health problems. We might all have found ourselves wracked with guilt, with varying degreees of actual culpability. You lot are hard.
 
jogills said:
Some fearful judgements, which belong in a world ruled by fear in my opinion. I make no comment on the exact behaviour of the McCanns at the time of the abduction but I will make a general one about being a parent. I do not believe there is a parent alive, who has completely shielded their child from every eventuality. If there is I suspect the child is now receiving help for mental health problems. We might all have found ourselves wracked with guilt, with varying degreees of actual culpability. You lot are hard.
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Totally agree.
 
Gills 58 said:
Nice piece Lancs. As you know, we do not have 'Roman Law" so I don't know where the trial would be under their system. As far as I know, in England and Wales it would normally be the area where offence was committed. My guess would be Portugal.

I don't know how the DM article would impact over their systems but, as usual, it was typically reckless. These papers pretend to care but if they could get a few more sales they are happy to put cases at risk. They can then have a sensationalist headline about how ridiculous it is that the "guilty" are acquitted through technicalities. Double win for the scum.
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True, 58. If the defendant in a similar case was a British subject abroad then a UK court could facilitate proceedings in a UK court re Child Sex (and other) offences committed in other countries. In this case there is no current clarity as to what crimes have been committed. As you`re aware, we have Common Law, which we in the UK use in relation to Murder but, in this case, if there was a murder it`s not clear where it occurred. If a murder venue can be established and it happens to be in Portugal then I agree, a case might well be heard in Portuguese courts. At present though, there are still many things, as far as we know, to be determined. Nationality of the offender is quite a big angle in this case, especially if he was a lone defendant. A very sad part of an investigation like the one in Germany, is that, due to the circumstances, there was always going to be a possibility of more similar abductions/murders; this aspect, which seems to be gaining traction, could yet prove to be the situation that brings about a trial in Germany. In that case, IMO, the Daily Mail tosh would be unlikely to threaten integrity of proceedings. Sounds as though there is still a lot of unravelling to do......
 
LancsGordoRoad said:
In that case, IMO, the Daily Mail tosh would be unlikely to threaten integrity of proceedings.
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There are strict privacy laws in Germany, which makes you wonder why so much information was given out by the police there while enquiries are ongoing, which in turn makes it inevitable fair game for the likes of the DM to publish details. Whether that would prejudice a trial in Germany would have to be seen. The whole nature of enquiries seems to point to the man's guilt and that's before any trial has taken place.
 
Wayne.Kerr said:
There are strict privacy laws in Germany, which makes you wonder why so much information was given out by the police there while enquiries are ongoing, which in turn makes it inevitable fair game for the likes of the DM to publish details. Whether that would prejudice a trial in Germany would have to be seen. The whole nature of enquiries seems to point to the man's guilt and that's before any trial has taken place.
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Not a dig but that last sentence is exactly the sort of thing that will be being said and would prejudice a trial. That's why his details should have been kept secret.
 
Wayne.Kerr said:
There are strict privacy laws in Germany, which makes you wonder why so much information was given out by the police there while enquiries are ongoing, which in turn makes it inevitable fair game for the likes of the DM to publish details. Whether that would prejudice a trial in Germany would have to be seen. The whole nature of enquiries seems to point to the man's guilt and that's before any trial has taken place.
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There will be a strategic reason for "so much information being given out" - if you`re referring to that released by the authorities. If police have sufficient evidence to seek proceedings regarding the serious crimes being investigated then then it would not be in the prosecution`s interest to release multi-data. Although, sometimes (especially in the UK) there is a need to release information to satisfy Disclosure matters. What`s happening in Germany suggests that there are some serious pieces of the jigsaw missing from the evidential bundle. I`d suggest that police are trying to turn strong and emerging intelligence, concerning a vehicle and also contact between the suspect and third party/ies, into (usable) evidence; evidence relating to the suspect`s conduct and maybe evidence as to the whereabouts of the (deceased) victim/s. Without it, despite credible and strong intelligence, they may not have a strong enough case to proceed to the courts.

Expediency may also be lending itself to any police released information, as there could be other legal processes, challenges, ongoing that could impact on whether or not a suspect remains in prison custody.

If evidence that authorities are seeking is found then it will help shape jurisdiction issues. As it stands, a trial, in this case, is very unlikely to end up in the UK.

Regarding the press tosh, the issue of balance takes into account the necessity of "appealing for information" against the risk of an unfair trial. Improbable that DM and other media tosh would impede a fair trial in Germany.
 
Detritus said:
When my kids were aged four and two years old yes I did, or rather I actively tried to. I certainly did not go out for a meal and leave them alone, at home or away. Doing that is indefensible.
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It wasn't just once they left the kids alone in their apartment, it was every night for the last four nights of their holiday.

No parent can 100% shield their child from every eventuality, but what every parent should do is do their very best to keep their children safe as possible by doing everything within their power to minimise the risks.

Sadly (for Madeleine more than the parents) the McCanns didn't do that.
 
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