AdebolaCornflakes
Vital Football Legend
You really do just post whatever you want, don't you chap?
Match Thread - Forest v Birmingham City, 3 points here ?
- Thread starter Old Red Fart
- Start date
You really do just post whatever you want, don't you chap?
mao tse tung
Vital Champions League
"Largely because to date their assessment of him have been accurate."
What does that mean?
Are you seriously saying that if the players do not like what the manager is trying to achieve they are well within their rights to down tools and put in lethargic and spineless performances?
If you walked into a failing business with a view to turning it round and some of the employees railed against new proposals because they do not like them or because they have always done things a different way, what would your reaction be?
Even if you consider that attitude acceptable, which I somehow doubt, we must have some players with incredible foresight because this rot started well before Hughton arrived.
And I do feel culture is important, just not in our current circumstances; at the moment we take each and every point as we get them, style and ethos go out the window I am afraid, and in comes grit and determination.
There is definitely a culture being built at the Club; go and watch the under 18s and particularly the under 23s, and you will see teams set up to play in exactly the same way as the first team; continuity is very much in the minds of everyone at that level.
All of those people who think that our current set up and formation is anathema to attractive football, should definitely go and see them play and see what is possible when players follow instructions and take responsibility for their actions.
And the recruitment at that level is also very impressive; four recent signings for the U23s - Larsson, Fernandez, Taylor and Konate are all fantastic signings with the last two looking like they could be special.
Developing a culture at that level is fairly easy compared to the first team were everything is results driven; not too many people complained about Lamouchi last season who was happy to cede possession in games; now we have Hughton who wants to keep possession and that is not good enough.
There are a combination of factors for why we are where we are; the injuries have certainly not helped, but the largest proportion of the blame lies with the players.
Is that down to recruitment?
Well, recruitment has definitely been poor in the past but there was a marked changed during pre season.
Not too many people complained about recruitment then; I know you had other ideas but the players you wanted were totally unrealistic, and I think deep down you know that.
I would guess that the recruitment raised expectations if anything; the experience we needed was recruited and we signed two young defenders with fantastic potential; what was not to like?
It is interesting how selective people can be when using statistics to make a point; during our bad start to the season, Lamouchi's record back as far as January was being thrown at him; Hughton comes into a sinking ship and all of that bad run is conveniently forgotten.
Rather that continually complain, it would be nice to hear, in plain terminology, what some of Hughton's detractors would do to rectify the situation and how they would stop former PL players making fundamental errors.
As for the future; I think there is very little chance of the Club progressing in the manner it should until a large proportion of the support base get a grip and lose that sense of entitlement.
Even if the culture and ethos is developed, and they are well down that road, there will still be that air of unrealistic expectation hanging over the Club.
The Premier League is not the promised land for most, it is merely a starting point.
radfordinlondon
Vital Football Legend
We should beat him with a rock all over the world
radfordinlondon
Vital Football Legend
While i think Will has a point, you make a good argument and i do agree about player responsibility. Good debate.
Ultimately as you say less about style atm and more about any means necessary. Most of us have written off this season already so another few wins on the board and they can buy time to focus on focusing as a group because on paper there is a decent squad there.
Calvin Plummer
Vital Football Legend
No, I was referring to your point about why listen to Norwich fans.
So the culture we are breeding is one of ultra conservative defensive direct football? Lots of men behind the ball and only attack in 1s and 2s? Little to no creativity? No actual love for possession? That's what we have in the first team and it's not a culture unless it runs top to bottom.
I mean the simple solution to your question is to stop over paying for failed former PL players.
Christie
Bong
Darikwa
Knockaert
Jenkinson
Colback
Freeman
Arter
How much is that in wages alone, and what are we getting in return? It's an ineffective and expensive strategy which means as per usual we'll be selling at least one player who actually benefits the team or shows potential but sure, it's all the players fault and not a failure of recruitment.
How is it the likes of Brentford and Barnsley with a fraction of our income can both build far younger, more exciting and just plain better footballing sides than ours?
The bad run isn't forgotten, it is what clearly points at a negative outside force to simply blaming the players. Your synopsis appears to be they simply became bad overnight and stopped caring for no rhyme or reason. That's illogical and refusing to see the whole.
How can we write the season off when we're embroiled in a relegation battle?
I'm sure most supporters wouldn't expect us to just go down without a fight despite the performances and results indicating that's what will happen.
Surely few people are hoping for more than becoming a longer term PL team. To be honest I would be over the moon with even one season, often wondering if I will ever see us play there again. Some of the clubs like Leicester are starting to show that it could be possible to break through. At £100 million a season, the gap between the big clubs and the others doesn't seem quite as large as a proportion of income as it used to be , though of course even they are still losing players like Mahrez, McGuire and Chilwell to the bigger clubs.
Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
Just to pull up a point
Brentford for most of the season were exactly where we were. We beat them home and away. We collapsed, as forest tend to. They just collapsed a little less. They also have an inbuilt London advantage when it comes to recruiting younger players.
Barnsley stayed up on the last day because of Hull's collapse and because of our collapse. They currently lie in midtable after continuing that late season survival momentum. They best us this season and really didn't deserve to; their team is not better than ours at all, they just are playing better, and if our results matched our expected goals we would be where they are.
Not two great examples to be honest
Calvin Plummer
Vital Football Legend
They both punch pound for pound far beyond us, while playing far better football. Brentford have more than double our points total, Barnsley have over 50% more. Our revenue is more than both clubs combined. Brentford do have the London advantage but we have plenty of our own, history, facilities and money. The last of which will always talk loudest.
Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
We collapsed and didn't recover. They collapsed less and did recover.
They put a lot of their eggs in one basket and it worked out we spread our transfer income far and wide and it didn't. Football is cyclical. I've come across plenty of Brentford fans who seek to think otherwise, but they'll be back in the lower leagues at some point, as will Bournemouth; just like Wigan are.
We alone seem able to defy the cycle by finding a way to be shit even when we are on the up.
If football is cyclical, why have we been a steaming pile of dogshit for over 20 years?
Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
Like I said, we are fairly unique. We have had three reasonable shots at the PL and a couple of outside chances and we've blown them all in spectacular fashion.
There is nothing that football punishes harder than not seizing your chance when it comes
mao tse tung
Vital Champions League
You obviously did not read what I wrote; the Club are clearly building an identity at under age level, and that is clearly the place to start with continuity being the key; however, if you seriously think there is any ethos or culture which can withstand the pressures we are under at the moment, then you have never played at any competitive level - once your confidence goes it becomes a fucking nightmare, and that's without having your every move scrutinised on TV.
There is no sign of ultra defensive football at under age level and yet they play the very same formation; maybe the youngsters are more amenable to change and new ideas than the seasoned professionals are.
I really am surprised that you cannot see why attacking is such a problem for us and why we fail to get more players into scoring positions, although we are getting more players into those positions this season than we did at any stage last season.
And I wish people would stop talking about creativity as if they had the faintest idea of what it means.
Keeping possession has been a major problem all season; we cannot keep possession because when the ball is played forward it does not stick and comes straight back.
That is because the Centre Forward has not been strong enough to retain possession and has not seen fit to make a run to receive the ball - what comes first the pass or the movement?
We do not get enough players into the box to take advantage of any chances we create; this was a huge problem last season - neither Lolley or Ameobi have the slightest interest in getting into the box and taking the responsibility of getting into a scoring position, both are far more comfortable shooting from distance - look at Lolley against Stoke in the final game last season - clean through with only the keeper to beat and he shit himself - he would probably have scored if he had shot from 25 yards.
We have had to wait for a young kid to come into the side to show the first inclination of what is needed because the senior pro's are too fucking frightened to take the responsibility - you could say that by picking Mighten, Hughton has displayed more attacking intent than Lamouchi did.
How many time during a game do you see Yates or Sow or the defenders on the ball, look up with the intention of making a forward pass, only to end up playing a sideways pass or a pass back to the keeper?
The player in possession needs movement if he is to make a telling pass, and that is the one thing we are not getting from our forwards - no movement equals no creativity.
Of the 8 players you mention three are loans so we will not be paying anything like their true wage, but its interesting to see you have now cast Darikwa onto the scrap heap.
Of the others Colback was deemed a good signing and so was Arter; neither have performed to anything like their ability so far this season.
And besides that the squad we have is not in a bad position despite the inflated numbers this season; its a good job we have had the numbers considering the injuries we have had.
Absolving the players from responsibility is absolutely the wrong thing to do; I know you have an axe to grind with Marinakis but blaming dark forces for our current predicament is just plain daft.
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mao tse tung
Vital Champions League
He will change his tune when he finds out that Barnsley are run by the Chinese Triads - the darkest of all dark forces
mao tse tung
Vital Champions League
Well if it is we must be on a Penny Farthing
Calvin Plummer
Vital Football Legend
I'm sure they will given their lack of resources but the model v their income is great, and their fans actually get to watch a decent side. When were you last truly entertained week in, week out?
Calvin Plummer
Vital Football Legend
If EM had put in a long term model that I bought into I could overlook his Stranglers background.
Calvin Plummer
Vital Football Legend
They weren't deemed good signings by me, and I began this discussion by saying I largely agree with your post about the players, did you forget that?
Where we diverge is that you apportion all the blame on the players and ignore hierarchy, culture, philosophy, recruitment, coaching etc. I'm still confused as to how all of the above is great but we sit in a relegation fight. There have been more than enough signings for the confidence argument to be a little thin. An entirely new back 4, an entirely new central midfield and new attackers. We can field virtually a new XI to last season...
I have played sport competitively (cricket to a higher standard than anything else) and confidence is clearly brittle but again this is where culture, philosophy and coaching should really shine. None are.
At the very least you normally get a bit of a new manager bounce. Other than going slightly more direct, nothing much seems to have changed under CH. Even Rooney has managed a bit of an improvement, though hopefully his luck has run out, and a series of draws won't get them too far either.
