Match Thread: Blades Vs Forest sponsored by the latest next manager thread | Page 13 | Vital Football

Match Thread: Blades Vs Forest sponsored by the latest next manager thread

Our luck with injuries is horrendous over quite a few seasons, must be some sort of gypsy curse. We get 5 or 6 bad ones a season and to key players, can't be many other clubs with such wretched luck with them. Where's Fig at he had a dead leg months ago, saw he's been training recently?
 
It's exactly what Pebble was claiming and has been for a while. He refused to acknowledge any gamesmanship or cheating by us believing it's part conspiracy, part simply just the odd mistimed tackle.

I do think we've been unfortunate with decisions this season but I don't think we help ourselves at all. Perception is important and we can't of been a pleasure to referee for a long time.

I'm not interested in other clubs behaviour, only ours, because it's only ours that we can control.

VAR is a mixed blessing, I have reservations and I don't believe it would of helped us much yesterday.

Contact is irrelevant to the law, the question is did his lunge stop Goldie from having a goal scoring opportunity. The answer looks like a clear yes. Harsh? Definitely. To the letter of the law? Yes.

The Colback situation, I'd probably have given a penalty and booked him lol
What I actually said was I was shocked that the fair play league showed as the dirtiest side in the Championship most of the past ten years, as I've seen us as lightweight, naive, and easily bullied. (Which is not to say we haven't had some ill-disciplined players who picked up loads of cards!)

Yesterday's game shows how subjective the big disciplinary decisions can be. Another ref might have given us a first half penalty and booked McGoldrick for diving.

I also pointed out that at Preston and home to Villa we saw two opponents rolling around clutching their heads when they had no reason to do so.

Against Preston two players did it at once to convince a ref to disallow a good Forest goal (to be fair, he'd probably already got it wrong without their playacting).

Against Villa it was one in each half, presumably trying to win penalties and get Benalouane carded. They also had players going down injured every ten minutes in the second half to break the game up, then recovering miraculously. I've seen comments from other posters that their manager used the same tactics when in charge of Brentford, so it does seem a deliberate tactic rather than random players misbehaving.

You say "I'm not interested in other clubs behaviour, only ours, because it's only ours that we can control." That's a cop-out. If you've not noticed the extremes some opponents go to, you're living in a dreamworld.

Like you, I'd prefer Forest players to never make a bad tackle or surround the ref, but I can cope with a real world where nothing's perfect. And in that world I agree with Pope - we've had some poor decisions go against us this season, some of which stem from opponents conning the ref to get their side an illegal goal or get a good Forest goal disallowed. Whatever our faults, I've seen nothing as blatant as that from our players.
 
So basically, what people are saying is that you accept that other teams cheat to get goals and points. But that doesn't matter because a table says we are the worst at something completely different which is dependent on the interpretation of referees.

And you don't want us to play the same games as these other teams, even if it puts us at a disadvantage compared to others.

And if we unilaterally follow every rule to the letter, referees will somehow be kinder to us and stop making some of the blatent mistakes that have cost us so badly this season

Whatever you guys are drinking, make mine a double
 
Watching the match replay of the Sheff Utd game - 15 minutes or so in I'm impressed with Forest. Organised, confident, fantastic spell of possession leading up to the Colback dive/penalty incident which basically looks like a penalty to us.

I already know that things ended up pear-shaped, but this is a team with nothing to play for, away to a team going for automatic promotion. Those who claim that O'Neill and Keane have destroyed team spirit and taken us backwards to some more primitive form of football might learn something from this.
 
This year has been particularly cruel regarding refereeing decisions.
Absolutely fucking appalling to be honest.
Evens itself out over the course of a season?
Does it fuck !
We should be 10 to 12 points better off and needless to say if we had those points in the bag our confidence wouldnt be on it's arse as it is now.
Anyone that thinks otherwise can get fucked!
 
It's exactly what Pebble was claiming and has been for a while. He refused to acknowledge any gamesmanship or cheating by us believing it's part conspiracy, part simply just the odd mistimed tackle.

I do think we've been unfortunate with decisions this season but I don't think we help ourselves at all. Perception is important and we can't of been a pleasure to referee for a long time.

I'm not interested in other clubs behaviour, only ours, because it's only ours that we can control.

VAR is a mixed blessing, I have reservations and I don't believe it would of helped us much yesterday.

Contact is irrelevant to the law, the question is did his lunge stop Goldie from having a goal scoring opportunity. The answer looks like a clear yes. Harsh? Definitely. To the letter of the law? Yes.

The Colback situation, I'd probably have given a penalty and booked him lol
Have ffs HAVE.
 
Going to state this now- I think we are in prime territory for relegation next season.

Lolley is likely to go and it sounds like so is Carvalho. That removes most of Grabbans goals even if he stays

Ask Ipswich what happens when you take the main sources of goals out of an average side.
Welcome to the club, just Pebble to convince now.
 
Watching the match replay of the Sheff Utd game - 15 minutes or so in I'm impressed with Forest. Organised, confident, fantastic spell of possession leading up to the Colback dive/penalty incident which basically looks like a penalty to us.

I already know that things ended up pear-shaped, but this is a team with nothing to play for, away to a team going for automatic promotion. Those who claim that O'Neill and Keane have destroyed team spirit and taken us backwards to some more primitive form of football might learn something from this.

I lean towards trying to be positive but there was barely anything to be positive about that game, yeah the ref screwed us and the game was over after the red but we never looked like scoring let alone winning that game. We had 5 shots 1 on target, since Mon took over we have struggled to create anything a lot of our games have similar shot on goal stats. Wednesday have nothing to play for and they took the game to Norwich (robbed by Another added on time on added in time goal), they played with energy and commitment and managed 12 shots 6 on target. Mon has ripped up the football they were playing pretty well which had us a point off 6th, the players look confused and have no drive I can't see how he can turn this round without a near full first team overhaul. If he gets to change things in the summer we will lose lolley, carvhallo and 2 or 3 others and we will see the likes of McClean come in for over the top money and we will be screwed.
 
So basically, what people are saying is that you accept that other teams cheat to get goals and points. But that doesn't matter because a table says we are the worst at something completely different which is dependent on the interpretation of referees.

And you don't want us to play the same games as these other teams, even if it puts us at a disadvantage compared to others.

And if we unilaterally follow every rule to the letter, referees will somehow be kinder to us and stop making some of the blatent mistakes that have cost us so badly this season

Whatever you guys are drinking, make mine a double
No that is not what we think strawman.
 

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Watching the match replay of the Sheff Utd game - 15 minutes or so in I'm impressed with Forest. Organised, confident, fantastic spell of possession leading up to the Colback dive/penalty incident which basically looks like a penalty to us.

I already know that things ended up pear-shaped, but this is a team with nothing to play for, away to a team going for automatic promotion. Those who claim that O'Neill and Keane have destroyed team spirit and taken us backwards to some more primitive form of football might learn something from this.
I’m kind of beginning to admire you in a strange way, Pebble. If it wasn’t for the fact you’ve been on here for years, I would put my house on you being either MON, or his agent.
If he is here next year, do yourself a favour, and put a minimum of a ton on us to go down. Because for all your protestations, that’s where he’s taking us next year.
 
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Yacob shouldve been one of the first names on the team sheet every damn week. His reading of the game alone is way above the rest of the team. In all honesty promotion next season isnt happening UNLESS we sell Lolley and Olympiakos give us our money back for Carvalho..as I dont think we will have the funds to strenthen adequately otherwise.
 
Watching the match replay of the Sheff Utd game - 15 minutes or so in I'm impressed with Forest. Organised, confident, fantastic spell of possession leading up to the Colback dive/penalty incident which basically looks like a penalty to us.

I already know that things ended up pear-shaped, but this is a team with nothing to play for, away to a team going for automatic promotion. Those who claim that O'Neill and Keane have destroyed team spirit and taken us backwards to some more primitive form of football might learn something from this.

Jesus. We've managed 2 shots on target in the last 2 matches and that impresses you.
 
So basically, what people are saying is that you accept that other teams cheat to get goals and points. But that doesn't matter because a table says we are the worst at something completely different which is dependent on the interpretation of referees.

And you don't want us to play the same games as these other teams, even if it puts us at a disadvantage compared to others.

And if we unilaterally follow every rule to the letter, referees will somehow be kinder to us and stop making some of the blatent mistakes that have cost us so badly this season

Whatever you guys are drinking, make mine a double

The table isn't irrelevant if it's having an influence on referees perceptions is it? Care to explain why decisions are consistently going against us otherwise?

If you don't believe us, how about Brian Clough? He knew a little about management, you may of heard of him even...he firmly believed that a well behaved team directly influenced the referee when he had a decision to make.

You're the patent who makes excuses for your child's piss poor behaviour by saying other kids do bad stuff too. Responsibility. Morality. Admirable qualities even if you lack them. It's no wonder so many kids cheat with you as a role model.
 
The table isn't irrelevant if it's having an influence on referees perceptions is it? Care to explain why decisions are consistently going against us otherwise?

If you don't believe us, how about Brian Clough? He knew a little about management, you may of heard of him even...he firmly believed that a well behaved team directly influenced the referee when he had a decision to make.

You're the patent who makes excuses for your child's piss poor behaviour by saying other kids do bad stuff too. Responsibility. Morality. Admirable qualities even if you lack them. It's no wonder so many kids cheat with you as a role model.
IF it is having an influence on referee perceptions. The idea that it is doing so is being offered up by you evidence free.

I don't have the answers as to why it is happening- I can only speculate.

One possibility is that it is just bad luck. We are a fundamentally unlucky club these days. Luck isn't just random of course, it comes to teams who deserve it, etc etc. But whether it is key injuries at crucial points, or just happening to have our only good season in a year where another club became unstoppable, that is our luck. When we were last relegated for instance, our 44 points would have had us safe a year later. When we survived on goal difference, that was the highest points needed for survival in ten years.

We have become an unlucky club, and we are very unlucky in a lot of decisions against us, right down to yellow cards like Colback's.

A second possibility is longevity. You talk about our 'ten year record' but how many teams have been in the Championship for ten years? Exactly three- us, Derby, Ipswich. Birmingham are next, joining in 2011-12. All of the others have been either in League one, often spending several years near the top of it, or in the PL with a totally different set of referees. Other leagues have a very different style of play and refereeing styles do differ, as we found when we came up. There is no reliable 'ten year' comparison. Even just saying that we have been near the top every year for ten years- again, that is a comparison to a lot of different sides and different contexts and a different division each time.

The other possibility of course is that we have been a clumsy side rather than a dirty one. Since 2009-10 we have had 15 changes of manager (including caretakers) and three owners. How many players, including loans, have gone through the club in that time?

Currently the longest serving player is Ben Osborn at about 5 years. Of the current side that played on Friday, seven of the squad of sixteen were here 12 months ago. Go another six months back and that drops to 3/16. Karanka himself must have signed nearly 30 players.

Think about the players who have temporarily come through our ranks in that time. Dumitru. Abdoun. Pereira. So many having to adapt to new countries and a league they did not know. All of them likely to have to adapt to a new manager and new style (because it's a general forest rule never to go for two consecutive managers who play the same style) at some point in their careers. Remember the red card Pereira got for 'over celebrating'? A pathetic, jobsworth decision the referee didn't need to make, but Pereira had no idea that in this country refs could be that petty

So you could argue that the constant disruption and churning of players has understandably made us a clumsy side. Compare to Sheffield United- 3 years with the same manager and largely the core of players that got them promoted. No wonder they get less cards, they all know each other so well!
 
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IF it is having an influence on referee perceptions. The idea that it is doing so is being offered up by you evidence free.

I don't have the answers as to why it is happening- I can only speculate.

One possibility is that it is just bad luck. We are a fundamentally unlucky club these days. Luck isn't just random of course, it comes to teams who deserve it, etc etc. But whether it is key injuries at crucial points, or just happening to have our only good season in a year where another club became unstoppable, that is our luck. When we were last relegated for instance, our 44 points would have had us safe a year later. When we survived on goal difference, that was the highest points needed for survival in ten years.

We have become an unlucky club, and we are very unlucky in a lot of decisions against us, right down to yellow cards like Colback's.

A second possibility is longevity. You talk about our 'ten year record' but how many teams have been in the Championship for ten years? Exactly three- us, Derby, Ipswich. Birmingham are next, joining in 2011-12. All of the others have been either in League one, often spending several years near the top of it, or in the PL with a totally different set of referees. Other leagues have a very different style of play and refereeing styles do differ, as we found when we came up. There is no reliable 'ten year' comparison. Even just saying that we have been near the top every year for ten years- again, that is a comparison to a lot of different sides and different contexts and a different division each time.

The other possibility of course is that we have been a clumsy side rather than a dirty one. Since 2009-10 we have had 15 changes of manager (including caretakers) and three owners. How many players, including loans, have gone through the club in that time?

Currently the longest serving player is Ben Osborn at about 5 years. Of the current side that played on Friday, seven of the squad of sixteen were here 12 months ago. Go another six months back and that drops to 3/16. Karanka himself must have signed nearly 30 players.

Think about the players who have temporarily come through our ranks in that time. Dumitru. Abdoun. Pereira. So many having to adapt to new countries and a league they did not know. All of them likely to have to adapt to a new manager and new style (because it's a general forest rule never to go for two consecutive managers who play the same style) at some point in their careers. Remember the red card Pereira got for 'over celebrating'? A pathetic, jobsworth decision the referee didn't need to make, but Pereira had no idea that in this country refs could be that petty

So you could argue that the constant disruption and churning of players has understandably made us a clumsy side. Compare to Sheffield United- 3 years with the same manager and largely the core of players that got them promoted. No wonder they get less cards, they all know each other so well!
Not sure clumsy can explain Colback’s card count this season. How many other players have racked up that many cards?

Regardless of why, we currently sit bottom of the fair play league by some distance. We were 16th last season and 21st the season before.

Thats not something I can be proud of.

You can argue cause and effect but the fact is that for ten years we have been predominantly shit in this league and for ten years we have been at the bottom of any fair play league. Maybe it’s time for a change.
 
I am not of the breed that seeks to sack the manager after 10-15 games. He/She has to play all the players in the squad to know if they are able. They also need to know who has character when chips are down and those that blow at the first sign.

Interesting that Robinson hasn't got position back since being suspended. Defence can not be built around Bene, as his discipline is always capable of having us finish with 10 men. Yates is comfortable being box to box work horse but not a right winger or play off striker. Colback can play as left back cover. Jacob can do a good job in Centre midfield. Carvalho can't tackle and is pushed off the ball to easy. Cash can't stay on his feet with a defender up his back. Grabban can't play loan striker. Heads go down after a goal and are vulnerable for another for next 15 mins. Pants does not like shots at ankle level or crosses in 6 yard box. Also can't kick.

3 games to go. Lessons have been learnt. Time now to start building some confidence for next season. A few wins and an away win will do nicely. Not sure it will happen though. I think Mon/RK will have these three games and the first 10 of next season to show some direction/improvement.

Can't see money men giving free hand. Decisions over who to buy will be with the men behind closed doors.