Manchester United riot and points deductions | Vital Football

Manchester United riot and points deductions

chandos9

chandos9

Vital Squad Member
According to the Premier League rules, clubs who do not fulfil fixtures get a points deduction. It led to Middlesbrough losing three points when they failed to turn up due to a flu outbreak https://www.thesportsman.com/articl...ugh-s-premier-league-no-show-of-december-1996
The circumstances of what happened and Old Trafford ought to lead to a points deduction for United, which would be even more bitter, since it would hand the title to Manchester City.
It does seem clear that those are the rules, and fan protests ought not to lead to a different outcome.
 
chandos9 said:
According to the Premier League rules, clubs who do not fulfil fixtures get a points deduction. It led to Middlesbrough losing three points when they failed to turn up due to a flu outbreak https://www.thesportsman.com/articl...ugh-s-premier-league-no-show-of-december-1996
The circumstances of what happened and Old Trafford ought to lead to a points deduction for United, which would be even more bitter, since it would hand the title to Manchester City.
It does seem clear that those are the rules, and fan protests ought not to lead to a different outcome.
Click to expand...
If it was decided by the Premier League safety team and the police that the fixture could not go ahead, and not by Manchester United, that might be a get out clause in this case...
 
As i see it Manchester United have failed to control their fans and it would be very strange indeed if they did not suffer punishment. Then again they are one of " the big six " so different rules probably apply.
 
jbacsta said:
As i see it Manchester United have failed to control their fans and it would be very strange indeed if they did not suffer punishment. Then again they are one of " the big six " so different rules probably apply.
Click to expand...
But fans were not allowed into the ground. There was no "controlling" to be done, no stewarding failures etc as it was behind closed doors. I don't see how Man Utd can be culpable for a group arriving outside and the old bill failing to keep them out of a closed door game
 
Pope John XXIII said:
But fans were not allowed into the ground. There was no "controlling" to be done, no stewarding failures etc as it was behind closed doors. I don't see how Man Utd can be culpable for a group arriving outside and the old bill failing to keep them out of a closed door game
Click to expand...
 
People claiming to be Manchester United fans broke into the ground and directly caused the game tobe postponed. They then went on national radio and admitted that they were responsible. Fair cop gov i think is the expression used in such situations.
 
I think that this depends on whether Manchester United are "at fault" within rule L15 of the Premier League rules (which presumably are read in context with L12, L13, L14). It could be said that Judas- ing on the Premier League to join the Super League counts as "fault", and that the consequences were foreseeable? Here are the rules anyway: https://resources.premierleague.com...a-4c6bc33368fa/2020-21-PL-Handbook-110920.pdf
It is interesting, as I thought that the rule used to carry strict liability, hence you were liable even if it was not your fault. I suppose here it was not possible to play the match safely.
 
jbacsta said:
People claiming to be Manchester United fans broke into the ground and directly caused the game tobe postponed. They then went on national radio and admitted that they were responsible. Fair cop gov i think is the expression used in such situations.
Click to expand...
No, it isn't.

Failing to control your fans is a charge brought about at attended games where the club's crowd control measures have been ineffective; where stewarding has failed to control the fans safely and where the club's plans and policies have failed to bring a crowd under control. Controlling the crowd is the responsibility of the club at attended games.

It is not the responsibility of a club at games behind closed doors, where minimal security is required and minimal stewarding because of no fans, and where the club's stewarding measures are irrelevant because there is no planned crowd to control.

Clubs have behind closed doors friendlies all the time. If a bunch of fans illegally forced their way into one of those, would it be fair to charge the club with failing to control a crowd they weren't even meant to have?

How precisely should Man Utd have controlled this incident? The fans were not in the ground initially, meaning that the rules of the stadium (with ejection as a consequence) would not apply. Once they broke in, that is a criminal act and it is the police, not the club's stewards, who are responsible.
 
A Man Utd employee must have opened a door. A stadium isn’t left open. This was planned. It is the responsibility of the club to secure the stadium, whether fans are in or not. Health and Safety. The club should have a penalty. Man Utd should be relegated and the championship team with the best record in Europe should be promoted. Simples.
 
Polly 433 said:
A Man Utd employee must have opened a door. A stadium isn’t left open. This was planned. It is the responsibility of the club to secure the stadium, whether fans are in or not. Health and Safety. The club should have a penalty. Man Utd should be relegated and the championship team with the best record in Europe should be promoted. Simples.
Click to expand...
Just because you don't like them and fancy them to have a points penalty doesn't mean they are liable for one.

If you can prove that an employee opened the door, can you prove that they didn't do so because their life was threatened?

And if you can't prove that someone opened the door, how do you know they didn't force their way in? Criminal damage seems to have been the MO.

What if they had turned up at midnight and broken in? Would the club have been liable for controlling them then too?

When your place of work is broken into when no one is there, are you liable? Or is it enough to take all reasonable precautions for the situation you were expecting?
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Just because you don't like them and fancy them to have a points penalty doesn't mean they are liable for one.

If you can prove that an employee opened the door, can you prove that they didn't do so because their life was threatened?

And if you can't prove that someone opened the door, how do you know they didn't force their way in? Criminal damage seems to have been the MO.

What if they had turned up at midnight and broken in? Would the club have been liable for controlling them then too?

When your place of work is broken into when no one is there, are you liable? Or is it enough to take all reasonable precautions for the situation you were expecting?
Click to expand...

According to one of the organisers they went down the Munich tunnel, climbed a fence then forced a gate open to let others in.
 
The football club is responsible, on match days, for the entire stadium including stadium parking areas, perimeter fences, egress and even air space above the stadium. Under normal circumstances they would be totally responsible. How big a security misdemeanour would depend the penalty. This game was to be played under the extra stadium security of covid restrictions. They have broken both sets of rules. How much blame can be placed on lax practice of club and therefore penalty is another matter. The club are guilty on both counts.
 
Calvin Plummer said:
According to one of the organisers they went down the Munich tunnel, climbed a fence then forced a gate open to let others in.
Click to expand...

i havn’t been to Old Trafford for many years but I cannot imagine it being that easy to get in to any premiership ground, especially Old Trafford, as climbing a fence.
 
Relegate them to the bottom of the football pyramid for the Super League fiasco and fine them.

Dock them 6 points for COVID security breach
Dock them 3 points for failing to fulfil a fixture.

Basically they start next season in Charlie's Chiropodist's Chorton-cum-Hardy 4th Division on -9 points.

Oh, why does the thought of that make me cum so Hardy?
 
Polly 433 said:
i havn’t been to Old Trafford for many years but I cannot imagine it being that easy to get in to any premiership ground, especially Old Trafford, as climbing a fence.
Click to expand...


Last time I went was for the Olympics football so I know it was 2012 & it still looked like a football ground with massive walls, metal fences & turnstiles etc. I can’t see it being that easy to break into especially given that it’s entirely enclosed, if they’d forced a fire escape or something I could have that but as I said earlier I don’t see how they got in. If I was Man Utd I’d be looking at a review of security very quickly as if those pissed up idiots can get in making noise & with flares & drums, what about someone with a couple of knives or weapons? It’s not like there was the horrible events at the MEN arena only a few years ago.
 
Regarding the instance quoted relating to Middlesbrough; the PL denied Boro's request to call off the game, and in calling the game off Boro completely ignored rules L12.2/12.3/12.4 and 12.5 - the decision was clear cut.

The PL were a party in the decision to postpone the game, along with both sides and the Police.

United have complied fully with the above rules, and unless anyone can prove that United put the fans up to the protest there is no case to answer
 
mao tse tung said:
Regarding the instance quoted relating to Middlesbrough; the PL denied Boro's request to call off the game, and in calling the game off Boro completely ignored rules L12.2/12.3/12.4 and 12.5 - the decision was clear cut.

The PL were a party in the decision to postpone the game, along with both sides and the Police.

United have complied fully with the above rules, and unless anyone can prove that United put the fans up to the protest there is no case to answer
Click to expand...
I am only surprised that you are not seeking to blame it on Liverpool fans and saying that there is video evidence of them doing it.
 
chandos9 said:
I am only surprised that you are not seeking to blame it on Liverpool fans and saying that there is video evidence of them doing it.
Click to expand...

Well its certainly no surprise you are posting garbage on a daily basis; you keep on reading reports, maybe one day you will come up with something related to the truth.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.