Leeds fred

[CornishForest]

What’s that got to do with Leeds battering for the whole of the second half and not laying a glove on them? That’s no excuse for that performance. If we’re that feeble when we have a couple of players out, then we’re down.

This.
Every time we lose a player, we shit ourselves.
Every club gets injuries, especially the prem.
after 3 years in and god knows how much spent, it doesn’t say much for our recruitment if we can’t soak up a couple of injuries every now and then.

 

[Peter Baxendale Thomas]

We have.

And as expected,reading the aftermath of last night's game he's the new Pele the saviour and answer to all our problems.

He's the new Cunha.

You seem to be implying that it wouldn’t have made any difference to have a LB playing at LB (and Ola playing at RB) as opposed to crowbarring in an academy CB out of position for his debut PL start.

Well, Dyche himself admitted he made the wrong call post-match. And you can’t have it both ways.

As for Cunha, Morato has been diabolical whenever he has started a game. He’s shown limited use value coming on for the last 10 but starting, absolutely not.

Cunha we haven’t see much of but when he’s played he’s looked better, and he’s also younger with a higher ceiling. So… of course people want him to get more game time.

But by all means keep pretending none of these decisions matter and nothing is Dyche’s fault. It’s probably easier to live that way than confronting the reality that if we survive it will be because of West Ham’s leaky defence, not anything the manager is implementing.

Nothing Dyche has done suggest he has any idea how to get the best out of our players, or any ability to implement patterns of play that reliably generate goals.

 

[Basha73]

What’s that got to do with Leeds battering for the whole of the second half and not laying a glove on them? That’s no excuse for that performance. If we’re that feeble when we have a couple of players out, then we’re down.

How were we doing before the first goal? We were comfortable and actually had better chances.

The first goal was largely on Aina and Ortega who didn’t cover himself in glory the whole game.

Heads dropped and so did workrate and that is unacceptable but the goals were pretty much purely on the defence having those gaps. Unless you are going to try telling me those goals all happen with Murillo, Williams and Sels.

Implying that those 3 being out didn’t and/or shouldn’t affect our performance is just not realistic.

 

[Basha73]

You seem to be implying that it wouldn’t have made any difference to have a LB playing at LB (and Ola playing at RB) as opposed to crowbarring in an academy CB out of position for his debut PL start.

Well, Dyche himself admitted he made the wrong call post-match. And you can’t have it both ways.

As for Cunha, Morato has been diabolical whenever he has started a game. He’s shown limited use value coming on for the last 10 but starting, absolutely not.

Cunha we haven’t see much of but when he’s played he’s looked better, and he’s also younger with a higher ceiling. So… of course people want him to get more game time.

But by all means keep pretending none of these decisions matter and nothing is Dyche’s fault. It’s probably easier to live that way than confronting the reality that if we survive it will be because of West Ham’s leaky defence, not anything the manager is implementing.

Nothing Dyche has done suggest he has any idea how to get the best out of our players, or any ability to implement patterns of play that reliably generate goals.

Dyche fucked up last night, no issue. But saying he doesn’t have any idea how to get the best out of our players is bobbins. He has done it on numerous occasions including Arsenal and Palace. Brentford wasn’t bad either.

Our issue is consistency and morale. Heads drop too quickly and players outside of the first choice 12 or 13 arent putting the work in. That’s partly on Dyche but mostly on the players themselves.

 

[Southern red]

To be fair mate this was someone calling him " s h*t" which I find disrespectful.I am not saying he should be starting I am saying he will get better with games under his belt. A young lad gets thrown in the deep end in a makeshift defence and because we let in some soft goals someone calls him out as"sh*t". As I have said on this thread our back up defenders are not at the required level but I don't blame Dyche for this scenario.We may get away with one of our regular back 4 missing but multiple ones then we look vulnerable.

But boil it down to basics…. He let his man get away from him twice that led to goals. Now any level he plays he needs to mark his man…he’s not alone in that aspect…Aina completely lazy and lost his man numerous times.

We can’t carry too many individuals… Abbott is learning..you hope, but some of our wasters are seasoned internationals and pulling that shit

 

[Southern red]

You seem to be implying that it wouldn’t have made any difference to have a LB playing at LB (and Ola playing at RB) as opposed to crowbarring in an academy CB out of position for his debut PL start.

Well, Dyche himself admitted he made the wrong call post-match. And you can’t have it both ways.

As for Cunha, Morato has been diabolical whenever he has started a game. He’s shown limited use value coming on for the last 10 but starting, absolutely not.

Cunha we haven’t see much of but when he’s played he’s looked better, and he’s also younger with a higher ceiling. So… of course people want him to get more game time.

But by all means keep pretending none of these decisions matter and nothing is Dyche’s fault. It’s probably easier to live that way than confronting the reality that if we survive it will be because of West Ham’s leaky defence, not anything the manager is implementing.

Nothing Dyche has done suggest he has any idea how to get the best out of our players, or any ability to implement patterns of play that reliably generate goals.

Except beating Liverpool at anfield… nothing but that right?

Or any of the wins/draws right? They don’t count…

 

[Barry Goldie]

Not sure if this is the right term, but there’s always been a ‘recency bias’ with non UK/EU defenders at Forest.
Of course there’s incredible exceptions like Felipe and Murillo, but why we recruit Cuibano and never play him is bizarre. Seems we will make a profit, but buying these players eats PSR budget and restricts what we do

Judging by comments on Netz, I hope this has changed Dyches mind on trusting him to start games

Seems bizarre he’s not in the EL squad with Savona injured. I’d have dropped Savona anyway as we don’t need 3 RBs especially as he is injured and we may not get past fenerbahce. Stupid decision that one

Fuck me I forgot about Felipe. How fucking good and sexy was he. He quickly became my favourite player when he got in the team. We really need another old experienced head like him or boly to step in for times like last night. Boly is obviously no longer that guy either.

 

[Red.Eagle3]

Except beating Liverpool at anfield… nothing but that right?

Or any of the wins/draws right? They don’t count…

With the players we have, we would still pick up the odd win if we didn’t have a manager at all.

 

[Peter Baxendale Thomas]

Except beating Liverpool at anfield… nothing but that right?

Or any of the wins/draws right? They don’t count…

How can you still be banging on about Liverpool away? That was in November FFS.

The best you can point to is that we haphazardly, occasionally get a result from somewhere.

That proves my point entirely.

Nothing Dyche has done shows the ability to RELIABLY implement a system that CONSISTENTLY creates chances.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

How can you still be banging on about Liverpool away? That was in November FFS.

The best you can point to is that we haphazardly, occasionally get a result from somewhere.

That proves my point entirely.

Nothing Dyche has done shows the ability to RELIABLY implement a system that CONSISTENTLY creates chances.

That's bollocks

Previous four games were an away win at West Ham, a home draw with Arsenal, an away win at Brentford and a home draw with Palace, playing half the game with 10 men and a third choice goalkeeper

It doesn't matter how much you try to warp history, you can't gaslight people into forgetting that those are four very good results with four very decent performances.

Last night was an abomination. The manager fucked up with his defensive choices. There was no good excuse to not play Netz. There should have been consideration to matching them up and going with 3 at the back. Abbott should only have played in that circumstance

But that doesn't excuse the absolutely awful performances from the whole defence and, from what I saw, Anderson and Jesus.

So one game in 5 has seen a bad performance and result. And people like you are trying to claim we haven't done well since November

 

[Peter Baxendale Thomas]

That's bollocks

Previous four games were an away win at West Ham, a home draw with Arsenal, an away win at Brentford and a home draw with Palace, playing half the game with 10 men and a third choice goalkeeper

It doesn't matter how much you try to warp history, you can't gaslight people into forgetting that those are four very good results with four very decent performances.

Last night was an abomination. The manager fucked up with his defensive choices. There was no good excuse to not play Netz. There should have been consideration to matching them up and going with 3 at the back. Abbott should only have played in that circumstance

But that doesn't excuse the absolutely awful performances from the whole defence and, from what I saw, Anderson and Jesus.

So one game in 5 has seen a bad performance and result. And people like you are trying to claim we haven't done well since November

Err, THAT is bollocks. Can you please point out what on earth is consistent about W6, D3, L8?

We’ve lost 47% of games under Dyche. That’s a fact. It’s laughable that you’re throwing around the word ‘gaslighting’.

He’s been here for months now. I couldn’t give a toss about the last 5, I’m looking at the full picture, and it’s not good.

The only way to pretend otherwise is by saying ‘well he’s better than Ange, the worst manager in our history’.

That might be a high enough bar for you but it bloody well isn’t for me.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

Err, THAT is bollocks. Can you please point out what on earth is consistent about W6, D3, L8?

That would be a 1.23 points a game- a 47 point season. Out of 9 Premier League seasons, that would be our fourth best.

We’ve lost 47% of games under Dyche. That’s a fact. It’s laughable that you’re throwing around the word ‘gaslighting’.

And we've won 35% in the league alone. That's a fact. And that isn't a bad return at all.

He’s been here for months now. I couldn’t give a toss about the last 5, I’m looking at the full picture, and it’s not good.

It's not amazing, but in terms of points per game it's absolutely fine- significantly better than Cooper or Nuno managed in our first two seasons. Critically, Nuno got a second season.

The only way to pretend otherwise is by saying ‘well he’s better than Ange, the worst manager in our history’.

Well, he's better than both Cooper and Nuno were at the same stage of their time in the PL with us- and he doesn't even have Chris Wood

That might be a high enough bar for you but it bloody well isn’t for me.

What is the minimum points per game you are willing to accept before sacking a manager? And at what point do they need to have reached that, in terms of games played? Do they automatically get the sack it at any point they have a bad run and drop below it?

 

[Will.NFFC]

Can’t believe we’re back to people saying we don’t have the players to stay up. It’s objectively and categorically nonsense.

Do west ham have a better team than us? Do Leeds have a better team than us? Do Brentford, who lost manager and two best players have a better team than us? Do newly promoted Sunderland have a better team than us? Do Everton have a better team?

None of them do and I’ll die on that hill. Every pundit talks about how good forests team is - it’s got Englands main number 6, another who’s played in the 10. It’s a brillliant back 4 that nearly all of us said is probably second best in the league behind Arsenal last season.

Okay, Woods injured and we’ve lost Elanga, but people need to wake up. We’ve signed 3 wingers to replace him. We’ve signed a striker who isn’t totally prolific but is certainly no slouch with 9 goals in all comps.

Bournemouth have lost Semenyo and their two best defenders
Brentford have lost manager, Mbuemo and Wissa
Leeds team is mostly championship players that are well drilled.

We’re where we are because of awful decisions at the top - appointing two crap managers and allowing this chaos to unfold.

We made Europe last season for crying out loud. Now that may have been an overachievement but it doesn’t suddenly make our real level the championship. Anderson linked with £100m moves, MGW £60m moves. Murillo linked with the best clubs in Europe. We have team that on paper most clubs would have bitten your hand off for before a ball was kicked.

 

[toms]

We must win the next 2 games

Was Murillo missing just a precaution ?

 

[CornishForest]

Can’t believe we’re back to people saying we don’t have the players to stay up. It’s objectively and categorically nonsense.

Do west ham have a better team than us? Do Leeds have a better team than us? Do Brentford, who lost manager and two best players have a better team than us? Do newly promoted Sunderland have a better team than us? Do Everton have a better team?

None of them do and I’ll die on that hill. Every pundit talks about how good forests team is - it’s got Englands main number 6, another who’s played in the 10. It’s a brillliant back 4 that nearly all of us said is probably second best in the league behind Arsenal last season.

Okay, Woods injured and we’ve lost Elanga, but people need to wake up. We’ve signed 3 wingers to replace him. We’ve signed a striker who isn’t totally prolific but is certainly no slouch with 9 goals in all comps.

Bournemouth have lost Semenyo and their two best defenders
Brentford have lost manager, Mbuemo and Wissa
Leeds team is mostly championship players that are well drilled.

We’re where we are because of awful decisions at the top - appointing two crap managers and allowing this chaos to unfold.

We made Europe last season for crying out loud. Now that may have been an overachievement but it doesn’t suddenly make our real level the championship. Anderson linked with £100m moves, MGW £60m moves. Murillo linked with the best clubs in Europe. We have team that on paper most clubs would have bitten your hand off for before a ball was kicked.

All of those teams you mentioned have goal scorers in them.
Swap Thiago Silva and Jesus around, swap Jesus and DCL around.

I know I’ve said it before, but put one goal scorer in this team, and we’re not having this conversation.
The one bright spark from last night was Lucca. Scored on his debut and his positioning in the box was far superior to anything Jesus does.
Is it too little too late?
Let’s find out.

 

[Chivalry Augustus]

The thing about most of these other “shit” teams is that they’re emulating our blueprint, and we’ve seen with our own struggles how difficult it is to beat defensively solid, united teams who are fighting for every point. The margins between us being 7th last season and being 17th really weren’t that significant - the clearances off the line, Chris Wood burying every chance we put in front of him while he was fully fit. Every team in the world is finding it increasingly tough to unlock this defensive style. That’s why we’re performing better in games where we’re the underdogs with less of the ball. And it’s why we’ll likely struggle to beat Wolves on Wednesday if they do the sensible thing and sit in, playing on the counter.

 

[Peter Baxendale Thomas]

That would be a 1.23 points a game- a 47 point season. Out of 9 Premier League seasons, that would be our fourth best.


And we've won 35% in the league alone. That's a fact. And that isn't a bad return at all.


It's not amazing, but in terms of points per game it's absolutely fine- significantly better than Cooper or Nuno managed in our first two seasons. Critically, Nuno got a second season.



Well, he's better than both Cooper and Nuno were at the same stage of their time in the PL with us- and he doesn't even have Chris Wood


What is the minimum points per game you are willing to accept before sacking a manager? And at what point do they need to have reached that, in terms of games played? Do they automatically get the sack it at any point they have a bad run and drop below it?

Pope, I have at no point called on the club to sack Dyche. I have said repeatedly that we are, for want of a better term, stuck with him until the summer, not least because there are no hireable options waiting in the wings.

I do not understand, however, why accepting that he’s the least worst option means you’re not allowed to criticise the guy.

Would you not agree that he has a far better squad to work with than Cooper ever did, or indeed that Nuno had in his first season?

Do you really think he is getting the best out of any of our players?

The point I am making is that I cannot identify a pattern of play, tactically, that sets us up to score goals with any degree of consistency.

Under Nuno, you knew what the plan was.

Under Dyche, we seem to be reliant on opposition errors or individual brilliance. And that’s just not a reliable way to create chances. ‘Hope Sangaré bangs one in from range’ or ‘try to force a mistake’ is not, to me, any kind of system.

I suspect what we may ultimately become is a version of his old Burnley side (Lucca up top and endless crosses). In a way I’d prefer that because as things are, game after game, I can’t tell what the plan even is. Players, to me, look stifled in their creativity and totally lacking in belief whenever we concede.

Re: points per game, if you want me to put a figure on it, under 1.1 is massive alarm bells; under 1 is the sack. I am well aware Dyche is exceeding those.

But there is a separate argument to be made about what an acceptable PPG would be for, what, the 13th most expensive squad in world football? Which is one reason why the Hughton comparison seems apt to me. There was a manager who had the fanbase so beaten down we convinced ourselves good players were rubbish - only for Cooper to come in and show what a good manager could actually achieve with them.

 

[Peter Baxendale Thomas]

Can’t believe we’re back to people saying we don’t have the players to stay up. It’s objectively and categorically nonsense.

Do west ham have a better team than us? Do Leeds have a better team than us? Do Brentford, who lost manager and two best players have a better team than us? Do newly promoted Sunderland have a better team than us? Do Everton have a better team?

None of them do and I’ll die on that hill. Every pundit talks about how good forests team is - it’s got Englands main number 6, another who’s played in the 10. It’s a brillliant back 4 that nearly all of us said is probably second best in the league behind Arsenal last season.

Okay, Woods injured and we’ve lost Elanga, but people need to wake up. We’ve signed 3 wingers to replace him. We’ve signed a striker who isn’t totally prolific but is certainly no slouch with 9 goals in all comps.

Bournemouth have lost Semenyo and their two best defenders
Brentford have lost manager, Mbuemo and Wissa
Leeds team is mostly championship players that are well drilled.

We’re where we are because of awful decisions at the top - appointing two crap managers and allowing this chaos to unfold.

We made Europe last season for crying out loud. Now that may have been an overachievement but it doesn’t suddenly make our real level the championship. Anderson linked with £100m moves, MGW £60m moves. Murillo linked with the best clubs in Europe. We have team that on paper most clubs would have bitten your hand off for before a ball was kicked.

100% agree with this.

 

[Will.NFFC]

All of those teams you mentioned have goal scorers in them.
Swap Thiago Silva and Jesus around, swap Jesus and DCL around.

I know I’ve said it before, but put one goal scorer in this team, and we’re not having this conversation.
The one bright spark from last night was Lucca. Scored on his debut and his positioning in the box was far superior to anything Jesus does.
Is it too little too late?
Let’s find out.

I don’t necessarily disagree that we don’t have enough scorers but it’s mostly down to how we play. Everton score goals and they have Beto and Barry… both shite really. Igor Thiago would probably be a big lump in our system.

Dyche is the one playing Dominguez - a holding midfielder - on the wing. He’s playing centre halves at full back. He’s got Hutchinson on the bench when he’s the one who looks capable of unlocking something.

We have to rely on our players scoring 50%/100% of the time because we barely create anything. What would the strikers other teams have in that second half against Leeds’s for 40
Minutes as we chased shadows?

The staff aren’t doing anywhere near enough with the players they have.

 

[CornishForest]

I don’t necessarily disagree that we don’t have enough scorers but it’s mostly down to how we play. Everton score goals and they have Beto and Barry… both shite really. Igor Thiago would probably be a big lump in our system.

Dyche is the one playing Dominguez - a holding midfielder - on the wing. He’s playing centre halves at full back. He’s got Hutchinson on the bench when he’s the one who looks capable of unlocking something.

We have to rely on our players scoring 50%/100% of the time because we barely create anything. What would the strikers other teams have in that second half against Leeds’s for 40
Minutes as we chased shadows?

The staff aren’t doing anywhere near enough with the players they have.

We tried more attacking football with Ange and we scored even less goals.
We need a striker(might have one) and more goals from midfield.
I’m not saying Dyche is perfect, he isn’t and I’d be the first to say I’ve been a bit disappointed with results with him.
But its personnel for me.