Joyce v Cook | Vital Football

Joyce v Cook

Made in Wigan

Vital Football Hero
#1
Warren Joyce is considered by some to be the worst ever manager of this club. He was only afforded 24 games so let’s compare Joyce vs Cook:

Joyce:

P 24, W 6, D 5, L 13.

Goals scored: 19.

Cook:

P 24, W 3, D 8. L 13,

Goals scored: 18.

Unequivocal statistical proof that Cook is a worse manager. I don’t think anyone quibbled with the decision to dispense with Joyce. Yet the board is failing us by retaining the services of this incompetent.
 

Arthur_Itis

Vital Squad Member
#2
Oh come on MiW, I'm not defending Cook's record, it's diabolical, but all this proves is that you can type some numbers in.
There is no statistical basis in fact, your hypothesis would be ripped to shreds by any A level maths student, can we not all just agree that Joyce and Cook both have terrible records and that we've witnessed more than out fair share of gash recently, without trying to stretch the fabric of basic science.
 

Stormin' Norman

Vital Squad Member
#3
Sod the stats lets put it in plain English....

Shocking football for over a year.
Awful tactics (clueless)
Favouritism with some players.
Playing for draws even at home.
Ridiculous substitutions. (mind boggling)
Joffy must have had an affair with Cooks Mrs. (lack of game time)
Had a pop at the fans.
Fans Forum was shambolic.
Recently become the worst manager in the clubs recent history.


And in my opinion Cook is doing most of the above deliberately to force the hands of the hierarchy to sack him then he gets his FULL pay off, the club won't pay it.

Stalemate!
 

Made in Wigan

Vital Football Hero
#4
Oh come on MiW, I'm not defending Cook's record, it's diabolical, but all this proves is that you can type some numbers in.
There is no statistical basis in fact, your hypothesis would be ripped to shreds by any A level maths student, can we not all just agree that Joyce and Cook both have terrible records and that we've witnessed more than out fair share of gash recently, without trying to stretch the fabric of basic science.
I disagree. The numbers are stark and they don’t lie. Over the same number of his recent games he has a worse record in charge. I do agree we’ve seen our fair share crap and it’s unjustifiable he’s still in employment.
 

Stormin' Norman

Vital Squad Member
#5
If the club don't want pay him off in full, Gardening Leave is the only answer.

Cook is one cheeky b***ard if he thinks he deserves a full pay off, one things for sure he doesn't deserve it not with his record!
 

Arthur_Itis

Vital Squad Member
#6
This might cheer you up MiW (although highly unlikely) as I'm getting a little obsessed by it now, at least you can see there may be someone worse off than yourself (although I am absolutely certain there are others worse off than me).

This is my personal record for attending championship away games since I last saw a win against Rotherham in March 2015

LLDLLLLLLDLLLLLDLDLLDL

P22 W0 D5 L17 Goals for 12, against 39.

I really know how to pick them !!
Perhaps the problem wasn't Joyce, Caldwell or Cook but me !!!

(Note, I've conveniently ignored League one games just for effect)

Roll on 2020, surely this can't continue.

:cry:
 

king_dezeeuw06

Vital Football Hero
#7
Oh come on MiW, I'm not defending Cook's record, it's diabolical, but all this proves is that you can type some numbers in.
There is no statistical basis in fact, your hypothesis would be ripped to shreds by any A level maths student, can we not all just agree that Joyce and Cook both have terrible records and that we've witnessed more than out fair share of gash recently, without trying to stretch the fabric of basic science.
Cooks win ratio this season is 15% Joyce's win ratio was about 24%. It's not statistical gymnastics - Cook this season has categorically got worse stats than Joyce had in about the same number of games.
 

Arthur_Itis

Vital Squad Member
#8
Cooks win ratio this season is 15% Joyce's win ratio was about 24%. It's not statistical gymnastics - Cook this season has categorically got worse stats than Joyce had in about the same number of games.
I don't dispute facts KDZ, just the assertion that these figures provide "Unequivocal statistical proof that Cook is a worse manager. "

I'll concede that over a similar number of games for different Wigan managers, utilising different playing squads, assembled under differing budgets, with different player availability profiles, against different opposition teams, also operating under different budgets, with different opposition playing squads, managed by different opposition managers at different venues there are definite differences in outcome. It's plain for all to see.
 

Arthur_Itis

Vital Squad Member
#9
Comparing Joyce's first 24 games with Cooks first 24 (championship) games:

Joyce (from MiW):

P 24, W 6, D 5, L 13.

Goals scored: 19.

Cook:

P 24, W 7, D 4. L 13,

Goals scored: 23.

What does this prove unequivocally ?
 

moonay

Vital Champions League
#11
........ Unequivocal statistical proof that Cook is a worse manager.........
My word MiW, you've posted some reet bollocks in your time (especially on the Brexit thread 😉), but that's gotta be up near the top of the list.

Stats can be used to show almost anything. As Arthur says, there's no argument that he has a poorer league (Championship) record to that of Joyce, but given his overall record, the style of play (sometimes, not always, and not much recently, I grant you) and the complete lack of anything positive to say about Joyce's tenure (and overall record), I reckon that your impaired judgement has to be put down to seasonal over-indulgence.
😉
 

Arthur_Itis

Vital Squad Member
#12
Proves you are backing someone who doesent deserve backing
Ha, good one, proof you don't read all the threads Zakky, or don't remember what you've read. I'm not backing Cook, he should have been sacked weeks ago. I'm just offering a counter argument to MiW's assertions. No need to apologise though, we are all getting on a bit so I fully understand, my memory isn't what it was either :-)
 

king_dezeeuw06

Vital Football Hero
#13
I don't dispute facts KDZ, just the assertion that these figures provide "Unequivocal statistical proof that Cook is a worse manager. "

I'll concede that over a similar number of games for different Wigan managers, utilising different playing squads, assembled under differing budgets, with different player availability profiles, against different opposition teams, also operating under different budgets, with different opposition playing squads, managed by different opposition managers at different venues there are definite differences in outcome. It's plain for all to see.
Of course but to get those stats Joyce inherited a squad second bottom, with no preseason and raised about 5m net in player trading. For Cook to get those stats he had 2 full seasons and 5 transfer windows, spending 8m net in the last window - more than any manager since we got relegated.

Not all things are equal but I think it's safe to say Cook had much more favourable circumstances and delivered worse results.

Even if you look at Cooks first 24 games at this level are only marginally better than Joyce disasterous spell and that again included a higher net spend, a pre season plus the initial 5 or 6 wins in first 10 promotion bounce. Cook had every advantage in every situation whichever way you slice it and Cooks best was only about 2pts better than Joyce who many consider the worst. It's not an argument in Cooks favour I genuinely think if you gave Joyce the same circumstances of Cook he'd have a very good chance to get at least 3 more points to better Cooks best at this level.

I believe Joyce went after not winning in 7 games. If we lose to Birmingham Cook would have survived double that winless run.

It makes me chuckle when people say you can use stats to say anything - you can't when they grt this bad. You cant make bottom of league, 15% win ratio - less than any manager in any season in modern era, no win in 13, 1 away win in 40 odd, etc into anything other than failure without being very disengenous.

I don't remember anyone making excuses like this when Joyce was struggling so I find it very confusing how Cook continues to have any defenders when he is doing worse than any manager who was sacked in the past 20 odd years.

I remember saying to someone what will it take for you to conceed Cook has to go back in October and they said no wins by Christmas which at the time seemed almost impossible it could go that long without a win by sheer law of averages - yet here we are and there is still some trying to defend the indefensible. I don't get what spell Cook has over people.
 
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moonay

Vital Champions League
#14
........It makes me chuckle when people say you can use stats to say anything - you can't when they grt this bad. ........
Of course you can. There's always an angle. In an example like this, the comparison makes it more difficult (though Arthur managed it), but stats can be found to support most arguments.

I don't remember anyone making excuses like this when Joyce was struggling so I find it very confusing how Cook continues to have any defenders when he is doing worse than any manager who was sacked in the past 20 odd years........
I don't think anyone is defending him in this instance KDZ ....... merely challenging the comparison.

That said, any leeway he was given was almost certainly to do with him
a) being an ex-player
b) having won the league (albeit league 1) and
c) displaying at least a little bit of passion for the club and team....... & admittedly, this has started to be laced with more than a little bullshit.

.......I remember saying to someone what will it take for you to conceed Cook has to go back in October and they said no wins by Christmas which at the time seemed almost impossible it could go that long without a win by sheer law of averages -.........
I think that was me. I conceded a few games ago that there was no case for defending his record, or supporting his retention. That said, with the way the team have capitulated in some games recently, and then on Sunday, totally outplay the team in 5th only to miss a penalty, and have a second (nailed on) denied, Cook must feel like he's really pissed off just about everybody in the spirit world ! If it wasn't for the bad, he'd have no luck at all.

...... - yet here we are and there is still some trying to defend the indefensible. I don't get what spell Cook has over people.
Again, no-one is defending him ......... just disagreeing with the comparison to Joyce.

:cheers:
 

Made in Wigan

Vital Football Hero
#16
My word MiW, you've posted some reet bollocks in your time (especially on the Brexit thread 😉), but that's gotta be up near the top of the list.

Stats can be used to show almost anything. As Arthur says, there's no argument that he has a poorer league (Championship) record to that of Joyce, but given his overall record, the style of play (sometimes, not always, and not much recently, I grant you) and the complete lack of anything positive to say about Joyce's tenure (and overall record), I reckon that your impaired judgement has to be put down to seasonal over-indulgence.
😉
His overall record includes L1 stats - hardly comparable is it. He’s one once away in 16 months. 16 fucking months! One clean sheet away in that time too. Joyce wasn’t great - and that’s an understatement, however his record is better, so yes it’s unequivocal statistical proof.

I fear you trying to defend that will be on a par with you arguing labours Brexit position was rational 😉
 

moonay

Vital Champions League
#19
Why the fuck do you need a counter argument or comparisons ffs?

The clown of a football manager should have been potted months ago, he's shit and taking the piss out of the club and the fans, no worries he'll get his comeuppance one day!
Hope you feel better now Norm.
.... I fear you trying to defend that will be on a par with you arguing labours Brexit position was rational 😉
As we both know, I explained and justified it way better than Corbyn ever did. 😉

Oh, and I'd rather watch a Cook team than a Joyce one.......... just not this one, at this moment!