Jose is an ex-Spurs manager! | Page 47 | Vital Football

Jose is an ex-Spurs manager!

The lack of organization in every game we play is on him. No question about it. Now we are seeing players barely trying most games.

It's not looking good. Looks to me he has already lost the dressing room.

The issue here is these players have been sulking and acting like bitches now for nearly 2 years. Why should they keep getting away with it?

Two managers have had the same problems.

We need a massive rebuild. Not sure Jose is the man for it. The negativity around the club is so draining it's unreal.

I couldn't agree more regarding players' attitudes for far too long now have been far from acceptable, and tantamount to sheer disrespect to our Club. Poch couldn't fix it and it's proving way beyond Jose' capabilities.

Total clean out and start afresh. Levy out!
 
I couldn't agree more regarding players' attitudes for far too long now have been far from acceptable, and tantamount to sheer disrespect to our Club. Poch couldn't fix it and it's proving way beyond Jose' capabilities.

Total clean out and start afresh. Levy out!

It's going to be interesting to read the latest set of accounts that come out from Spurs this month. What people are starting to realise is that Levy and his team did some seriously bad forecasting through 2015-2019 and it caused the club to implode on the pitch. For the accounts we've seen (2017/18), Levy held his manager to zero net spending in the year that Walker left and then gave the tax man a £25m gift as we posted £139m profit. This was before the Levy vs Poch debacle over whether the club didn't get Poch the elite players he needed or whether he wouldn't accept the squad players as an alternative. Either way, there was no spending and we should expect another healthy profit posted, and yet another significant donation to the tax man.

Ultimately, we can keep blaming managers but this has all been on Levy's watch and it is now down to him to fix it. I'm not sure we'd be better off if The Tavistock Group / ENIC sold their shares in the club and we had new owners though. There's loads of bad owners out there and the FFP control points limit spending anyway. We probably would be better off if either Levy's performance on the football finance side of the club improved or he stepped aside and let a more qualified leader take over. One that gets football naturally and can use that understanding to manage the football finances with success on the pitch.
 
When he joined the Club Mourinho stated that the squad he inherited was good enough to challenge for honours and wouldn't require major investment (or words to that effect). Now he claims that the Leipzig subs bench would all walk into his first eleven. Although it's not acceptable, it's not all that surprising that the motivation levels out on the pitch don't look to be anywhere near what they should be. Given his recent record, and the fact that his increasingly distant successes were built on open cheque books, it is difficult to understand what Levy's thinking would have been when he appointed Jose, and interesting to know what his thinking is now. This relationship was always going to end in tears sooner or later, looks like it may be sooner rather than later.
 
When he joined the Club Mourinho stated that the squad he inherited was good enough to challenge for honours and wouldn't require major investment (or words to that effect). Now he claims that the Leipzig subs bench would all walk into his first eleven. Although it's not acceptable, it's not all that surprising that the motivation levels out on the pitch don't look to be anywhere near what they should be. Given his recent record, and the fact that his increasingly distant successes were built on open cheque books, it is difficult to understand what Levy's thinking would have been when he appointed Jose, and interesting to know what his thinking is now. This relationship was always going to end in tears sooner or later, looks like it may be sooner rather than later.

Jose did have at least 5 first choice players missing injured against Leipzig. 2 of them strikers, our only LB and our best transitional midfielder. So that's 4 that were not really replaceable from the squad .
 
It's going to be interesting to read the latest set of accounts that come out from Spurs this month. What people are starting to realise is that Levy and his team did some seriously bad forecasting through 2015-2019 and it caused the club to implode on the pitch. For the accounts we've seen (2017/18), Levy held his manager to zero net spending in the year that Walker left and then gave the tax man a £25m gift as we posted £139m profit. This was before the Levy vs Poch debacle over whether the club didn't get Poch the elite players he needed or whether he wouldn't accept the squad players as an alternative. Either way, there was no spending and we should expect another healthy profit posted, and yet another significant donation to the tax man.

Ultimately, we can keep blaming managers but this has all been on Levy's watch and it is now down to him to fix it. I'm not sure we'd be better off if The Tavistock Group / ENIC sold their shares in the club and we had new owners though. There's loads of bad owners out there and the FFP control points limit spending anyway. We probably would be better off if either Levy's performance on the football finance side of the club improved or he stepped aside and let a more qualified leader take over. One that gets football naturally and can use that understanding to manage the football finances with success on the pitch.

I think you also neglect the impact of spending so much money on a group of players who just weren't up to the required standard; my view who wasn't good enough:

2015 incoming:

DeAndre Yedlin
Federico Fazio
Benjamin Stambouli
Kevin Wimmer
Cinton N'jie
Vincent Janssen
Georges-Kevin Nkoudou
Moussa Sissoko (took him two seasons to make any sort of an impact)
Paulo Gazzaniga (50/50 call)
Foyth
Serge Aurier (never ceases to swing like a pendulum)
Fernando Llorente
Moura (50/50)

Add that lot up...and the look at what the range of monetary waste is (assuming we all agreed on who wasn't good enough).

I've left this season off for now

All bought under Poch's watch and Poch transfer chief.
 
I think you also neglect the impact of spending so much money on a group of players who just weren't up to the required standard; my view who wasn't good enough:

2015 incoming:

DeAndre Yedlin
Federico Fazio
Benjamin Stambouli
Kevin Wimmer
Cinton N'jie
Vincent Janssen
Georges-Kevin Nkoudou
Moussa Sissoko (took him two seasons to make any sort of an impact)
Paulo Gazzaniga (50/50 call)
Foyth
Serge Aurier (never ceases to swing like a pendulum)
Fernando Llorente
Moura (50/50)

Add that lot up...and the look at what the range of monetary waste is (assuming we all agreed on who wasn't good enough).

I've left this season off for now

All bought under Poch's watch and Poch transfer chief.

It's always a great conversation. When you look at our best team you see that Lloris, Walker, Rose, Toby, Jan, Dembele, Eriksen, Dele, Son were great buys. Kane was homegrown and even Wanyama looked a great buy at one point. Half the team came from AVB's watch. Half of Harry's great team came from Ramos's. Who would be surprised if Gio, Ndombele, Sess, Dele, Sanchez, Kane, Son etc become part of a great Jose side. All Poch buys.

The common denominator is that all of our managers have been dealt a tough hand as they all have to take chances in the transfer market because of the budgets handed to them. They all have a poor success factor in the transfer market and we see your list above comparable to any Spurs manager under Levy.

If it's any indication of the past then we should expect over half of Sess, Gio, Ndombele, Bergwijn, Gedson and Clark to fail. That in itself is a great test of the new cashflow model. If they don't, then we've turned a corner.
 
I think you also neglect the impact of spending so much money on a group of players who just weren't up to the required standard; my view who wasn't good enough:

2015 incoming:

DeAndre Yedlin
Federico Fazio
Benjamin Stambouli
Kevin Wimmer
Cinton N'jie
Vincent Janssen
Georges-Kevin Nkoudou
Moussa Sissoko (took him two seasons to make any sort of an impact)
Paulo Gazzaniga (50/50 call)
Foyth
Serge Aurier (never ceases to swing like a pendulum)
Fernando Llorente
Moura (50/50)

Add that lot up...and the look at what the range of monetary waste is (assuming we all agreed on who wasn't good enough).

I've left this season off for now

All bought under Poch's watch and Poch transfer chief.

The only name on your list I disagree with is Yedlin. Cost us 1.5 million and has been much better than Serge over the last 2 seasons. I'd take him back in a heartbeat.

I'd add Pao to this list as we spent a good few million on his loan.
 
The only name on your list I disagree with is Yedlin. Cost us 1.5 million and has been much better than Serge over the last 2 seasons. I'd take him back in a heartbeat.

I'd add Pao to this list as we spent a good few million on his loan.

What about Wimmer? Bought for £4.5m and got a couple of seasons use as a backup player. Sold for £18m. Is that a success or failure? :-)
 
What about Wimmer? Bought for £4.5m and got a couple of seasons use as a backup player. Sold for £18m. Is that a success or failure? :-)

Yedlin walks into our 11, Wimmer doesn't. I don't rate him a failure only because of the funds he raised.
 
What about Wimmer? Bought for £4.5m and got a couple of seasons use as a backup player. Sold for £18m. Is that a success or failure? :-)

what is worth doing is adding up how much we had invested in 'dead' money and what effect they had on the plans to renew/spread the load on the squad?
 
We should probably look at all of Poch's buys, not just a subset, and also factor in their purchase value

14/15 - Davies £12m (Swap), Yedlin £3m, Vorm £3.5m, Dier £4m, Fazio £8m, Stambouli £4.7m, Dele £5m
15/16 - Trippier £3.5m, Wimmer £4.3m, Toby £11.5m, N'Jie £12.2m, Son £22m
16/17 - Sissoko £30m, Janssen £17m, Nkoudou £10.8m, Wanyama £11m
17/18 - Gazza £2.5m, Aurier £23m, Llorente £12m, Sanchez £42m, Foyth £8m, Moura £25m
18/19 - nobody


In his £32m of net spending over 5 years, it depends how you assess the big signings as to whether Poch was a success or failure. What you see is clear success stories and other deals that don't seem so bad when you see the transfer value. However, you see others like Janssen that go the other way.

Then onto last summer where we finally started spending, too little too late for Poch clearly.

19/20 - Ndombele £53.8m, Gio £42m, Sess £25m, Clarke £8.5m.

Obviously, it's too early to judge these guys but Gio already looks an amazing acquisition. Hopefully Ndombele and Sess will come good as well.
 
what is worth doing is adding up how much we had invested in 'dead' money and what effect they had on the plans to renew/spread the load on the squad?

So looks like I hit the button at the same time you were writing.

My take on it is always the same - quality over quantity. What I would applaud Poch for is ripping out those 35 players in his first 2 summers. That finally got the squad numbers manageable after his predecessors had left it bloated.

However, the success of the entire recruitment team on the 26 acquired players is clearly questionable. Some golden nuggets like Toby and Son but too many failures. It was healthier in the earlier part of Poch's tenure versus the latter.

Also why I don't like the "we've spent 200m over 4 seasons" positioning that Levy said at the trust meeting. We spent 80% of that in these last 9 months after the implosion. The £32m made available in the 5 years before that created that scenario as much as the bad choices on player recruitment.
 
We should probably look at all of Poch's buys, not just a subset, and also factor in their purchase value

14/15 - Davies £12m (Swap), Yedlin £3m, Vorm £3.5m, Dier £4m, Fazio £8m, Stambouli £4.7m, Dele £5m
15/16 - Trippier £3.5m, Wimmer £4.3m, Toby £11.5m, N'Jie £12.2m, Son £22m
16/17 - Sissoko £30m, Janssen £17m, Nkoudou £10.8m, Wanyama £11m
17/18 - Gazza £2.5m, Aurier £23m, Llorente £12m, Sanchez £42m, Foyth £8m, Moura £25m
18/19 - nobody


In his £32m of net spending over 5 years, it depends how you assess the big signings as to whether Poch was a success or failure. What you see is clear success stories and other deals that don't seem so bad when you see the transfer value. However, you see others like Janssen that go the other way.

Then onto last summer where we finally started spending, too little too late for Poch clearly.

19/20 - Ndombele £53.8m, Gio £42m, Sess £25m, Clarke £8.5m.

Obviously, it's too early to judge these guys but Gio already looks an amazing acquisition. Hopefully Ndombele and Sess will come good as well.

Dele & Dier are by no means Poch transfers (as I suspect other transfers in his first season). They were tracked, groomed and bagged long before he joined.
 
Dele & Dier are by no means Poch transfers (as I suspect other transfers in his first season). They were tracked, groomed and bagged long before he joined.

Just like Mourinho had the last say on Bergwijn, Poch would have still had to bless the Dele and Dier deals that came in on his watch. By your theory, where do you draw the line? Poch was the manager and is either culpable or not for ALL signings. We can't pick and choose which ones.
 
Just like Mourinho had the last say on Bergwijn, Poch would have still had to bless the Dele and Dier deals that came in on his watch. By your theory, where do you draw the line? Poch was the manager and is either culpable or not for ALL signings. We can't pick and choose which ones.

Don't buy it, they were done deals and he was a nobody when he came in so had no power to reverse those decisions.
 
Don't buy it, they were done deals and he was a nobody when he came in so had no power to reverse those decisions.


I tend to agree with Pollo on this. Levy sees a deal like Dele and loses all sense of team structure. Also, Ex posted "How a Transfer Works" a few months ago and those deals would have to have been well into the process before Pochettino showed up. Levy in deal mode is like a train coming out of the mountains without brakes.
 
I tend to agree with Pollo on this. Levy sees a deal like Dele and loses all sense of team structure. Also, Ex posted "How a Transfer Works" a few months ago and those deals would have to have been well into the process before Pochettino showed up. Levy in deal mode is like a train coming out of the mountains without brakes.

Great thread idea:

Levy in deal mode is like...
 
I tend to agree with Pollo on this. Levy sees a deal like Dele and loses all sense of team structure. Also, Ex posted "How a Transfer Works" a few months ago and those deals would have to have been well into the process before Pochettino showed up. Levy in deal mode is like a train coming out of the mountains without brakes.

Not the way I remember it. Look at the chronology.

Poch joins Levy's team in the summer 2014. Paul Mitchell joined in November 2014 and Dele joined on transfer deadline day Jan 15 and stayed at MK Don's on loan.

Paul Mitchell was the guy that had been a player and head of recruitment at MK Dons for 7 years and knew Dele personally. He was there from 2007 to 2012 before joining Poch at Saints and then us. He has always been credited with smoothing this deal whilst other clubs were vying for the youngster.

Hence why I still say you cannot just pick and choose when you give an incumbent manager credit or not for signings on his watch. Mitchell probably made the difference and he was Poch's man and knew Dele.

Every deal has its nuances but we can't be picking and choosing when to give a manager credit. Recruitment is a team sport and they succeed and fail as a complete group.