Is The Dream Over? | Page 2 | Vital Football

Is The Dream Over?

Swales, I will try to answer your points whilst keeping inside libel Laws.

Mclaren. No argument from me on the first sacking. His rehiring had some merit as the hope was that we would get the same free flowing football but with more success this time. No argument from me on the 2nd sacking.

Clement. He was given a series of well published KPIs when he arrived. He had frequent meetings with MM to discuss how well he was stacking up against those KPIs. He was told by Mel that he was falling down on most of them and that things had to change and change quickly. He was given some slack due to the results but when they disappeared only to be replaced by rumour of non-football related issues he had to go. It wasn't throwing toys out of the pram, it was bog standard staff management. I do not argue with Clement's demise.

Pearson. The football was dire. The results were average at best. Then there was the Idiakez training ground incident for which he was suspended pending talks between MM and Pearson. MM wanted to sack Idi, Pearo didn't. That meeting ended, according to reports in the press and online, ina physical altercation with the manager having to be pulled off the chairman. I spent many years of my working life in senior management roles. If anybody had dared lay a hand on me they would have been out of the door. Again, a sacking that was correct and not one that could be deemed throwing your toys out of the pram.

Rowett. Decided to go elsewhere. Again not a single toy dispatched out of the pram.

Can anybody please tell me when MM has disposed of his toys in afit of pique with regard to managerial departures? It looks very much to me that he was quite right in all of his sackings.


Rehirng mac 2 was a sensible decision? So expert in management you would rehire someone ignoring their failings and hoping the better side woudl come good? really? Mind you after Newcastle one would think nobody would hire the guy - good coach not a very good manager in recent years.

Clement - we were 5th he'd had half a season, the stuff about targets and KPi's is just surmise on your part as you can't possibly know - I don't believe the guff about "the Derby Way" being the reason, but why say that? That was the season Mel had his dressing room rant - its possible that Clement did not like Mel's interference but an indication that he wasn't letting the guy get on with the job - for me that another epic fail in decision making and evidence of questionable judgement.

Pearson, if Mel did not know what he was going to get with Pearson then he is either does not know much about football or was badly advised or both.

Rowett's departure maybe mel could not pevent it, maybe he actually facilitated it - it works for him financially - £2 million in the bank and hire a cheaper manager.

If Lampard is appointed then I can only assume Mel has lost the plot, of course I may well be proven wrong, but surely a managers job is to manage the team not be a figure head to attract "high quality loans"? In any case other clubs without such a well known personality at the helm seem to manage fine.


So a critique of the owner is slinging brickbats at him Anag? I think after what has happened over the last few seasons since mel took over a bit of scrutiny is deserved - my rating is his heart is in the right place but given he could and should have got this club promoted in the time he has owned it, he has made some fundemental mistakes and basically wasted his dosh - if he sold up tomorrow, i for one would be very happy.

I thought this forum was for a debate on Derby, thanks Madamster for your reasoned response, shame the other old farts on here cannot string a coherent sentence together.
 
Rehirng mac 2 was a sensible decision? So expert in management you would rehire someone ignoring their failings and hoping the better side woudl come good? really? Mind you after Newcastle one would think nobody would hire the guy - good coach not a very good manager in recent years.

Clement - we were 5th he'd had half a season, the stuff about targets and KPi's is just surmise on your part as you can't possibly know - I don't believe the guff about "the Derby Way" being the reason, but why say that? That was the season Mel had his dressing room rant - its possible that Clement did not like Mel's interference but an indication that he wasn't letting the guy get on with the job - for me that another epic fail in decision making and evidence of questionable judgement.

Pearson, if Mel did not know what he was going to get with Pearson then he is either does not know much about football or was badly advised or both.

Rowett's departure maybe mel could not pevent it, maybe he actually facilitated it - it works for him financially - £2 million in the bank and hire a cheaper manager.

If Lampard is appointed then I can only assume Mel has lost the plot, of course I may well be proven wrong, but surely a managers job is to manage the team not be a figure head to attract "high quality loans"? In any case other clubs without such a well known personality at the helm seem to manage fine.


So a critique of the owner is slinging brickbats at him Anag? I think after what has happened over the last few seasons since mel took over a bit of scrutiny is deserved - my rating is his heart is in the right place but given he could and should have got this club promoted in the time he has owned it, he has made some fundemental mistakes and basically wasted his dosh - if he sold up tomorrow, i for one would be very happy.

I thought this forum was for a debate on Derby, thanks Madamster for your reasoned response, shame the other old farts on here cannot string a coherent sentence together.

Bit touchy today Swaley ;).
Hadn’t realised that accusing Morris of ‘throwing his toys out of the pram’ and making ‘a right balls up of the club’ actually constituted a ‘critique’.
It’s easy to chuck accusations, or brickbats, around without ever substantiating them and I wasn’t actually only referring to you...but...tell us...when has Mel Morris ‘chucked his toys out of the pram’ and how has he made a ‘right balls up’?
Sure...he appeared to lose his cool once, at Hartlepool (I think) two and a half years ago, and he’s clearly made some mistakes...who hasn’t? Beyond that?
You also say he should have hired some ‘football brains’ and let them get on with it.
The Sam Rush involvement we can’t really comment on, but I’d suggest the likes of Clement, McClaren, Pearson, Redknapp and Rowett all constitute ‘football brains’ and MM hired them all.
As far as we know at least three of those five have seriously let Morris and DCFC down and many of the other ‘football brains’ - players and back room staff - have hardly covered themselves in glory either.
It is simply my opinion that there are others who are more to blame for Derby’s failure to move forward than Morris himself and let’s not forget that this season we were the only club to finish in the top six while not actually benefiting from parachute payments.
Perhaps if your own response had been more reasoned and coherent, rather than excitable and exaggerated, I’d have considered it to be ‘debate’ rather than just another angry, personal and largely unfounded rant.
 
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Bit touchy today Swaley ;).
Hadn’t realised that accusing Morris of ‘throwing his toys out of the pram’ and making ‘a right balls up of the club’ actually constituted a ‘critique’.
It’s easy to chuck accusations, or brickbats, around without ever substantiating them and I wasn’t actually only referring to you...but...tell us...when has Mel Morris ‘chucked his toys out of the pram’ and how has he made a ‘right balls up’?
Sure...he appeared to lose his cool once, at Hartlepool (I think) two and a half years ago, and he’s clearly made some mistakes...who hasn’t? Beyond that?
You also say he should have hired some ‘football brains’ and let them get on with it.
The Sam Rush involvement we can’t really comment on, but I’d suggest the likes of Clement, McClaren, Pearson, Redknapp and Rowett all constitute ‘football brains’ and MM hired them all.
As far as we know at least three of those five have seriously let Morris and DCFC down and many of the other ‘football brains’ - players and back room staff - have hardly covered themselves in glory either.
It is simply my opinion that there are others who are more to blame for Derby’s failure to move forward than Morris himself and let’s not forget that this season we were the only club to finish in the top six while not actually benefiting from parachute payments.
Perhaps if your own response had been more reasoned and coherent, rather than excitable and exaggerated, I’d have considered it to be ‘debate’ rather than just another angry, personal and largely unfounded rant.


Sorry how do you work out that any of the 5 you mentioned let Morris down?

For someone talking about substantiating facts you make an awful lot of assumptions and seem to give Morris a whole bunch of slack!

If an organisation i was involved in had as many arrivals and departures that Derby has had in the past 5 years, never mind the Rush issue, then I'd be asking pretty searching questions about the guy at the helm.

Rowett did not let Morris down he moved to another job, funnily enough in this world employees do have the right to do that and Morris pocketed £2 million.

McClaren was sacked by Morris twice - if he was as is alleged disloyal the first time why rehire?

As for Pearson well that was Mels call, there was enough in public knowledge to know about Pearson - error of judgement if he found him not to his liking.

The buck stops with the guy at the top, thats Morris by any standards his record while owning the club is not one of stability and progression - we have stood still at best and I'm struggling to see why your so defensive of him.

Perhaps if you actually posted something coherent rather than the ramblings of a sentimental fan out of touch with reality I wouldn't feel the need to rant?
 
Rehirng mac 2 was a sensible decision? So expert in management you would rehire someone ignoring their failings and hoping the better side woudl come good? really? Mind you after Newcastle one would think nobody would hire the guy - good coach not a very good manager in recent years. Didn't say it was sensible, just that it had SOME merit based on his 2014 season with us.......

Clement - we were 5th he'd had half a season, the stuff about targets and KPi's is just surmise on your part as you can't possibly know - I don't believe the guff about "the Derby Way" being the reason, but why say that? That was the season Mel had his dressing room rant - its possible that Clement did not like Mel's interference but an indication that he wasn't letting the guy get on with the job - for me that another epic fail in decision making and evidence of questionable judgement. I didn't surmise anything. I got the information from dcfc.co.uk interviews with Mel at the time. There are also alleged non-footballing reasons that aided the decision to sack.

Pearson, if Mel did not know what he was going to get with Pearson then he is either does not know much about football or was badly advised or both. No arguments from me. In fact if the rumour mill was correct then sacking was the only thing he could do.

Rowett's departure maybe mel could not pevent it, maybe he actually facilitated it - it works for him financially - £2 million in the bank and hire a cheaper manager. This implies that you know what GR was on and that whoever the new guy is will cost less...... maybe you are the one who surmises ;)

If Lampard is appointed then I can only assume Mel has lost the plot, of course I may well be proven wrong, but surely a managers job is to manage the team not be a figure head to attract "high quality loans"? In any case other clubs without such a well known personality at the helm seem to manage fine. Evere seen Lampard coach? Any idea what his footballing philosophy is? He has all the necessary diplomas. You maybe think he can't do the job as he hasn't done it before. You might be wrong. You might be right. If he comes I will cut him some slack.


So a critique of the owner is slinging brickbats at him Anag? I think after what has happened over the last few seasons since mel took over a bit of scrutiny is deserved - my rating is his heart is in the right place but given he could and should have got this club promoted in the time he has owned it, he has made some fundemental mistakes and basically wasted his dosh - if he sold up tomorrow, i for one would be very happy.

I thought this forum was for a debate on Derby, thanks Madamster for your reasoned response, shame the other old farts on here cannot string a coherent sentence together. Thanks for the compliment............... except for the bit intimating that I am an old fart ;)
 
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I'm not surmising about Rowett, he signed a new contract with a pay increase earlier this year. if mel pays a rookie like lampard more than Rowett was on then frankly words would fail me.


Please tell me where Lampard has coached? Outline his experience at football management? Theory is all well and good but can he cut it in the real thing? I agree only time will tell but IMO its a massive gamble and an appointment that has all the hallmarks of an owner who knows jack shit about running a football club but knows a high profile "name" will keep the fans happy.

Cut him some slack - why? If he applys for the job and gets it on the back of his name rather than merit, then its welcome to the real world Frank, now produce results. Frankly (no pun intended) I think its a joke and will set the seal on what has been a rather disappointing time since our Mel took charge - but then again it may all be a roaring sucess and come next may when we are champions I could be eating my words...but I dont see that scenario myself.
 
No one has said ‘Lampard has coached’, Swale...just that he has the relevant coaching qualifications.
No one has said he has experience of football management...just that we’ve gone down that route and it hasn’t really worked has it?
Other than that, after half a novel’s worth of rant and personal attacks, congratulations...you’ve at last recognised what most have been saying for days...it’s all a gamble.
My own first choice, Paul Cook, would be a gamble...because he’s never operated above tier three...and yes Lampard would/will be a gamble too...even some one as proven at this level as Warnock would be a gamble...he was a total disaster at Leeds.
Negativity and abuse aside then...who would be your preferred candidate?
 
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I'm not surmising about Rowett, he signed a new contract with a pay increase earlier this year. if mel pays a rookie like lampard more than Rowett was on then frankly words would fail me. Never said you did. You surmising was that the new manager would get more than Rowett.


Please tell me where Lampard has coached? I don't know where but he has coached. For the FA Level 3 badge, following the course you have to complete a few tasks. One is to prepare and give a series of exercises designed to improve fitness or speed or agility or.... You write an essay on what it is you wish to improve. How your are going to do that explained in detailed session plans. You then give the sessions having, for instance measured 3 or 4 player's speed over 15 yards. Give them the sessions. repest the timing session and then hope you have made them quicker. You choose what it is you wish to improve. The only demand is that it has to me measurable. You then have to prepare and give something 20 footballing coaching sessions. Each session has to be based on a footballing issue. Either improving something or introducing something new to the squad. Getting full backs to overlap, for instance. Level 4 requires even more practical work with players of a higher level. You plan the session (L3 and L4), give it and then comment on your thoughts as to how well or not it went. How you would improve it next time. You also have to get one of the players to judge the session. Did it do what was intended and was it enjoyable. A good %, can't remember how many, have to be watched and judged by someone who already has the badge. Outline his experience at football management? He hasn't got any. Theory is all well and good but can he cut it in the real thing? As detailed above, he will have had to have done some effective coaching in practice. I agree only time will tell but IMO its a massive gamble and an appointment that has all the hallmarks of an owner who knows jack shit about running a football club but knows a high profile "name" will keep the fans happy. Good player (no guarantee). Good skipper (shows "managerial" qualities on the park). Intelligent. Articulate so can get his point over. Just missing experience.

This is an enjoyable exchange of views.
 
I am with Swales with this one it's gamble we should not be taking Of course they have to start somewhere But the Championship is no place for a rookie manager Where I disagree with Swales is his vitriol to blame Morris for all our trouble None of the managers he has sacked can have any complaints I can't recall fans saying he was wrong at the time As for Rowett I don't believe for one minute he's left to better himself hes gone because he knows what a mess there is to clear up Imo he's took the cowards at it As for MM having to many managers Watford had four in one season when they got promoted
 
I am with Swales with this one it's gamble we should not be taking Of course they have to start somewhere But the Championship is no place for a rookie manager Where I disagree with Swales is his vitriol to blame Morris for all our trouble None of the managers he has sacked can have any complaints I can't recall fans saying he was wrong at the time As for Rowett I don't believe for one minute he's left to better himself hes gone because he knows what a mess there is to clear up Imo he's took the cowards at it As for MM having to many managers Watford had four in one season when they got promoted

Paraphrasing the above....... any new manager is a gamble.
 
Paraphrasing the above....... any new manager is a gamble.


In a way true, though that an over simplification - Rowett wasn't much of a gamble, he had a track record and didn't disgrace himself at Derby or indeed any of the clubs he has managed thus far, whether he met fans somewhat unrealistic expectations is another matter, but then very few managers do in truth.

So it is entirely possible to recruit a manager who would be nowhere near as big a gamble as Lampard undoubtedly is.
 
I am with Swales with this one it's gamble we should not be taking Of course they have to start somewhere But the Championship is no place for a rookie manager Where I disagree with Swales is his vitriol to blame Morris for all our trouble None of the managers he has sacked can have any complaints I can't recall fans saying he was wrong at the time As for Rowett I don't believe for one minute he's left to better himself hes gone because he knows what a mess there is to clear up Imo he's took the cowards at it As for MM having to many managers Watford had four in one season when they got promoted


I think your being harsh on Rowett - there are a number of reasons he has been tempted to move to Stoke.

Its a local club to him with a much bigger budget due to parachute payments etc. than Derby will have.

Its well run, the owners are not trigger happy with their managers.

I'd be surprised if he won't earn at least a million a year with no doubt a hefty bonus for promotion.

The club look at this time a better bet for promotion than Derby do - a gamble on his part but one thats better paid.

A choice between being a higher paid manager of a club with significantly more financial resources and a better recent track record than where he is now looks like the action of a guy who has the courage of his convictions and is looking after his career, not a coward.

Plus nobody actually knows what happened when Stoke made the approach in January - there could well have been an agreement with Mel that come the end of the season he could move if the opportunity came a round.

Mel could well have encouraged the move as it suited him financially, although I admit I am presuming we are getting a rookie like Lampard on much cheaper wages with a sizeable bonus and wage rise due if he achieves promotion.
 
Apparently, the interviews are being held by Mel and the club's accountant!! So, plenty of footie knowledge there then!!

To be honest I doubt it is just those people but we have to open our eyes to the fact that far too much money has been spent on players that either are not suited to our style of play or just not good enough. A large consensus would probably get us a better manager, but there again it may all come down to finance at the end of the day.
 
It's got to the point now that I'd have anyone step in. I think the main ingredient for a successful team is the players have to be half decent but with the right attitude. A happy dressing room is one of the main ingredients, so the first job is get rid of the sulkies. Lampard even mentioned this a week back. Warnocks Cardiff were very average players but happy a willing to die for the cause.
 
My Sister in Laws next door neighbour's cat has told me their budgie says it will be announced tomorrow.........


...............little birdies are usually ITK
 
It's got to the point now that I'd have anyone step in. I think the main ingredient for a successful team is the players have to be half decent but with the right attitude. A happy dressing room is one of the main ingredients, so the first job is get rid of the sulkies. Lampard even mentioned this a week back. Warnocks Cardiff were very average players but happy a willing free to die for the cause.

Agree there. Problem being with such a big squad there are always going to be about 12 or more players left out every week who want to be involved and can t blame em for being unhappy and wanting to play.
 
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