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Departed
Guest
Did you know that despite all our bitching and complaining about Hugo and other defensive players we still had the THIRD best defence in the league? Even though we let in 4 goals on the final day!
freundorfoe
Vital 1st Team Regular
Agree to disagree mate. He'd flown under the radar but any soton fan would tell you he was one of the best in Europe when they had him. They had best defence in the league when he was there iirc
Edit:looked it up. They had 2nd best defence in the league behind Chelsea that season. He was a world class CB camouflaged by a mid table team around him.
Ok mate ,I'm really happy to agree to disagree ,lts really strange though that there wasn't a better value put on his ability by Athletico . Apparently they didn't rate him at all , shipped him out on loan to Southampton , who thought they had an agreement to buy him for £8 million , and we got him for about 10.5 I think . I know the saints went mad and threateñed to sue everyone .
It was the above that I was basing my comments on about him not being one of the best in Europe , until Poch got him under his wing .
I've read this morning MU are "confident they can get him for £40 m"
It was the above that I was basing my comments on about him not being one of the best in Europe , until Poch got him under his wing .
I've read this morning MU are "confident they can get him for £40 m"
Sorry Fruend , I thought I had replied to your post but it didn't attach itself,my reply is above
Real Deal
Alert Team
He has certainly helped them get to that level. That wasn't my point though.
then you have left me in the dark
So what exactly is your point then . He has got us to champions league for the last three seasons with players that weren't the best in Europe ,but had got them to that level, and hasn't had the funds to buy ready made " best in Europe " like the Mancs do.
help me out . If that is "good/ very good "can you tell me who has done better
Did you know that at the last World Cup in 2014 Spurs had no players in the England squad.
Apart from Ben Davies ,who signed that summer , we had no home international players
Apart from Ben Davies ,who signed that summer , we had no home international players
Real Deal
Alert Team
He has got us CL three seasons running with players that should be winning trophies. I don't see that as genius.
Yes he has improved players but quite a few players were already at a very good level before he even arrived. You are underestimating how good some of the players we had at the time of his arrival.
Players like Hugo, Walker, Toby, Verts, Eriksen, Dembele were already at a very high level before he arrived. IMO they would have always got to the level they are at or reached. Players like Wana and Son were already very well known and again at very good levels when he signed them.
He should be praised more for improving players like Rose, Dier, Alli, Kane. As they have come on massive levels. But that is his job. He gets paid 5m a year to do it. There are loads of young managers in the lower leagues that improve players to really good levels yet they are not geniuses are they?
A genius is a manager that over performs but wins trophies. There isn't many managers that can be called a genius. Sir Alex certainly deserves that title, are you telling me Poch has earned that title like Sir Alex? Do me a favour.
I can picture you as a Tennis player or Boxer. "I'm world class the best in the world", yet never wins a Grand slam or world title. ;-)
Spursex
Alert Team
Seriously, by what objective measures do you determine that we should have been winning trophies? (Apart of course the Top 4 one whereby one of the greatest managers of the PL era who is of the opinion is the equivalent of doing so).
He improved Walker no end, same with Toby and Verts - all of whom would consistently make game defining errors and have done since they joined us; terrific players, but certainly not the Gods you allude to.
As fro Dembo; before Poch he was just a sideways backwards player who shielded and held the ball well, whilst dribbling the same player three times without consistently offering anything going forward. Poch finally changed that.
Eriksen is far more consistent now than he's ever been, that said, I regret that Poch hasn't had the confidence in him/rest of the team to move him into the middle as harry did with Modric, as I think he'd have the same electrifying effect.
Son was roundly and vocally written off here and elsewhere - the same is true of Victor who was seen as a red card/bad non thinking fouler just waiting for a yellow card - he improved both these players beyond all recognition.
The difference, I grant you between winning and coming second or just failing is massive - and again and again he's made it clear that yo need to find that winning mentality that we just seem to keep lacking - it's my hope that he'll address it this summer.
Genius is an over-used term in football, he isn't one as in the PL that in terms of an accolade is mostly reserved for managers with limitless budgets and who can get almost any player they want...there has only been one exception to that in the PL er and chances are we won't see it again in our lifetime..
To be where we are today is an incredible achievement, but to be the sort of consistent 'winners' you think we should be, may well take another £200-300 mill in spending, because winning one trophy and then disappearing from sight for a decade or two is something that just won't cut it for some anymore; expectations have been risen - and the only person whose fault and who deserves all the credit for it is the man himself; Poch.
D
Departed
Guest
The Levy/Pochettino combination is changing football. They are disruptors. Few see it now but if they remain together they will become legendary.
Nick Real Deal
Vital Football Legend
Interesting you should say that. Genius has many definitions but one is to be unorthodox and change accepted methods of achieving a goal. I think genius is stretching it a bit. I would say his man management is in front of his game management.
Real Deal
Alert Team
I have given him credit where it's due. I find it baffling when people are calling him a genius. It's ridiculous. If he is a genius then so are many other managers around.
You know my opinion on every player you mention so I don't need to go through it again. I have given Poch credit for improving every player we have. Damn I have even said he is our best ever Premier League manager. My point was he had some very good players already here before he arrived. It's not like he was working with mid table cannon fodder.
I do however feel 4 managers in the league would have won a trophy or two with the players we have. If he is a genius then he would have delivered a trophy in the last 3 seasons. He didn't. At the moment at best he is a very good manager.
I don't get why winning 1 trophy would set us back either? I am assuming you think to win a trophy we would need to miss out on the CL once and if we did we would go into free fall? And yes I know all about the frigging financial gap.
Doesn't mean a team can't win trophies. When a team and a large part of the squad is good enough then they are good enough. Having the money makes it a lot easier but hell everyone knows that. Any news on his meeting with the Levy?
Real Deal
Alert Team
We need a Poch/Levy meeting update....
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Departed
Guest
We do. It would settle the summer.
Spursex
Alert Team
I have given him credit where it's due. I find it baffling when people are calling him a genius. It's ridiculous. If he is a genius then so are many other managers around.
You know my opinion on every player you mention so I don't need to go through it again. I have given Poch credit for improving every player we have. Damn I have even said he is our best ever Premier League manager. My point was he had some very good players already here before he arrived. It's not like he was working with mid table cannon fodder.
I do however feel 4 managers in the league would have won a trophy or two with the players we have. If he is a genius then he would have delivered a trophy in the last 3 seasons. He didn't. At the moment at best he is a very good manager.
I don't get why winning 1 trophy would set us back either? I am assuming you think to win a trophy we would need to miss out on the CL once and if we did we would go into free fall? And yes I know all about the frigging financial gap.
Any news on his meeting with the Levy?
It beats me why he is being called a genius either, but then I think hyperbole goes cap in hand in football and the media and some punters default to these settings because they can't explain themselves logically....
Which 4 managers in the Premier league with a similar budget would have won us something by now and how?
He is clearly an exceptional coach doing an exceptional job; if he wasn't, we wouldn't be consistently over-performing relative to our financial performance (and this underpins EVERYthing).
My 1 trophy comment was a sop to our past 'winning' track record - I want a continuous improvement that cements us in the top clubs in the land and gives us a concrete base to build on - just as the stadium is designed to do.
Context is also EVERYthing; last season he had to deal with Walker being sold, Rose, Toby and Vic virtually being unavailable for 3/4 of teh season and yet still we managed to perform incredibly in the PL and the CL - we've never even seen the likes of such consistent performances - and all against a backdrop of playing EVERY single game away from home!
Seriously, we lack that winner, that leader, that winning mentality - POch knows it and has eluded to it many times, we as fans know it and so to some extent do the players know - just read LLoris recent interview...
As for the last bit, it is a funny old World, Poch's office is 10 yards from Levy's - Levy often gets in the crack of dawn and so does Poch, I'm told they often have ad-hoc meetings and are now good friends with huge mutual respect.
If Levy can deliver what Poch wants (which will not be small), my money is on him doing just that.
In Poch he has a manager/coach he does believe in and will take calculated risks with.
You'll have seen today that just as I said last summer we were making approaches and upping our interest in Justin Kluivert - that's the sort of forward thinking that Poch was asking for...despite reports to the contrary, Ajax turned us down and so we were never given permission to speak with him - but I'm told his rattle throwing has nothing to do with getting to the manure, it's to get them to take our approach seriously - which by the way he's known about for the last year...
It's just another example of how targetting a player simply doesn't mean you're going to get him, and that is the issue we are grappling less and less with now we are a consistent CL qualifier.
And that market ADVANATAGE is all down to what Poch has achieved.
Nick Real Deal
Vital Football Legend
What could we have won ? CL....not realistic, PL impossible with City reaching 100 points. FA cup we had a good go at . League Cup....Embarrassment to even celebrate it had we won.
Getting CL is far harder than winning either of the last 2 cups. 38 games against quality opponent's. We went one better than that , we got third.
Getting CL is far harder than winning either of the last 2 cups. 38 games against quality opponent's. We went one better than that , we got third.
total spurs
Predictor Champion 2022/23
Well for what its worth and on balance I think I agree with RD. IMO with the players we have we could (perhaps not should) have won a trophy over the past 3 seasons. And NRD, I don't think I would be embarrassed to celebrate a league cup victory, pretty sure the players wouldn't either!
My take on Poch is this.......when it really matters in the cups, he hasn't managed to pick a team to win. This season for example - at 'home' to SPam, Juve & Utd........
Has he improved players........I guess the answer must be yes, but the question remains (1) would they have improved irrespective of him - because plenty haven't improved! (2) Would another manager have overseen the same improvement?
He has to be applauded for 3 consecutive top 4 finishes, but I am honestly not convinced any decent manager wouldn't have got the same out of IMO a frigging good squad.
He certainly seems to be a good man manager, but I guess those that warm the bench most, or don't even get on the bench, may not agree, as would be the case in any club I guess.
I think he still needs to tactically improve and I hope that happens during the next season.....We & He need a trophy, cos otherwise I think we are going to lose a few in 12 months time
My take on Poch is this.......when it really matters in the cups, he hasn't managed to pick a team to win. This season for example - at 'home' to SPam, Juve & Utd........
Has he improved players........I guess the answer must be yes, but the question remains (1) would they have improved irrespective of him - because plenty haven't improved! (2) Would another manager have overseen the same improvement?
He has to be applauded for 3 consecutive top 4 finishes, but I am honestly not convinced any decent manager wouldn't have got the same out of IMO a frigging good squad.
He certainly seems to be a good man manager, but I guess those that warm the bench most, or don't even get on the bench, may not agree, as would be the case in any club I guess.
I think he still needs to tactically improve and I hope that happens during the next season.....We & He need a trophy, cos otherwise I think we are going to lose a few in 12 months time
CanadianSpur
Vital Squad Member
I may be wrong here but I seriously doubt winning a League Cup or even the FA Cup will have much of an impact on our recruitment and/or retention of players. Wages and consistent CL are what matter to the players.
Nick Real Deal
Vital Football Legend
Could have is very vague. Burnley could have. I would be ashamed in a discussion with a City or Chav supporter talking about silver ware..... Yeah but we won the League cup, yes I know all the teams play their kids and just see it as an interference to the League they are in but you get a nice shiney cup at the end of it.
I'm not a tennis player ,nor do I do boxing nor do I consider myself the best in the world . What I do very well is support Tottenham and appreciate where we are at the moment .
You are obviously blinding yourself to Pochettino' s achievements , which I think is because you want to find reasons to find fault with him.
Did you notice how hoddle .conn and resrocspur attached themselves to your posts .?
When he joined us he inherited :
Lloris, Friedel, Vorm.
Yedlin, Walker , Rose, Davies
Kaboul, Vertongen , Chiriches, Fazio , Dier
Stambouli, Capoue, Paulinho, Dembele, Mason , Benteleb, Eriksen ,Cebellos, Lamella, Townsend , Chadli
Soldado , Adebayor, Kane.
Not quite what you were saying about having a squad of players that were some of the best in Europe.
In that first summer transfer season 18 players were either released or sold leaving him with the above .
Within two years he had transformed the squad into what we have now .
He brought in players that he knew he could work with and kept those that he recognised as worth keeping. He assembled a squad that he knew would work together , that he knew he could improve . And continue to improve
He moulded them into some of the best in Europe
He did it without breaking the strict constraints set by Daniel Levy.
And we all know what they are .
He has kept them together and given us some of the best football we have seen for years . We are Spurs supporters so we know how up and down it all was . We celebrated 4-4 draws as if it was a cup final . We beat the gooners on one occaision 5-1 and dined out on it for years .
As an aside ,if you want to compare him to Alex Ferguson , in his first four years , he came 11 th , 2 nd , 11 th , then just avoided relegation and the sack by the skin of his teeth. .
He has caught up with the gooners and left them in his wake , caught up with Chelsea, continually been better than Liverpool and now on a par with the red Mancs . You mention the money being spent by all them but seem to dismiss it .
Yes , you give him begrudging praise in certain areas but denigrate him because he hasn't won a trophy .you mention that four managers would have won a trophy with our players . I hope you are not alluding to Conte , Mourinho , Guardiola , or Wenger because there is no way in the world any of them would even get out of bed to work for us , with what we pay in transfer fees or wages
Who else would have settled for putting his job on the line by playing every game away from home ,for an entire season , and still delivered on the the promise , no ....exceeded on the promise to put this club into the positions expected by Daniel Levy
.
He has sold the project to the players , with perhaps only one baulking at what he gets paid . He has brought in quality that hasn't broken the bank and turned us into a team that now regularly qualifies for the Champions League .we are well known across Europe ,and feared by most .
Just say it to yourself again , we regularly qualify for the Champions League .
And That Is Genius.
