I'm Going To Love The Reaction To This | Page 3 | Vital Football

I'm Going To Love The Reaction To This

mike_field - 5/10/2013 03:45

No NI, it's based on the uniform policy.

That is restated time and again in other coverage, but admittedly I linked the report that talked about appearance as well, but it was a report that was later in the day, so if you look back 'appearance' became a new addition once it was obviously pointing out uniform was a wank idea.

The head talked about uniform policy, and whilst I more than get students benefit from a uniform, you cannot control nature.

And whilst I get unnatural appearance changes such as dying hair should be controlled. Natural hair growth?

Will they ban kids who have a crew cut next?

What about a girl who has long hair and then goes for perm, or a short cut?

We aren't talking piss taking like skin head, or Mohawk, or dying purple or green?

My first thought, that I said I'd keep to myself, was actually, how many white students have grown a pathetic facial muff at this school and had the same treatment but not made headlines - because it's obviously racial driven, so it won't make the press?

Any staff members have a beard?

Any staff members have a tash?

Any staff members have long hair?

Any females teachers dye their hair, or males for that matter?

Wear a push up bra, a more complimentary pant?

This is why I liked the idea of the reaction because I knew so many would go for Moslem, wanting it their own way, pushing their boundaries, doing this doing that doing the other.

That's the story that makes the press. What came before?

Never dismiss the power of a stereotype and the bullshit that will lead some to say anything that doesn't actually apply when you think about it.
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Sorry Mike but what?

General appearance is covered in the schools uniform policy.

http://www.mountcarmelhigh.lancs.sch.uk/index.php?category_id=80

The rules state boys are expected to be clean shaven. Hair length, style and jewellery is also covered. I can't comment on the rules regarding staff but it's irrelevant anyway. We're discussing rules for students which are clearly defined.

You say this is racially driven. That's a hell of an assumption to make. If the rules were changed in order to specifically target these boys you'd have a point, but I've seen no evidence of this being the case.

Are we now saying that pupils should only adhere to rules they agree with?

You mention white kids. Why? Again irrelevant.

As stated in the article all but 2 pupils complied with the policy. These 2 pupils are not the only muslims at the school so why are they the only ones to not conform? What's special about them? Why do they deserve preferential treatment?

They were aware of the rules before joining but now want to change them to suit themselves. I'd call that pushing the boundaries, regardless of race or creed.

Are you saying the school has no right to set its own rules?
 
You say this is racially driven. That's a hell of an assumption to make. If the rules were changed in order to specifically target these boys you'd have a point, but I've seen no evidence of this being the case.
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It isnt racially driven, mike is just jumping on the "lets discriminate against white British" bandwagon! Ever realise why when you go shopping half the employees are non British white - in a country with a British white population of over 80%? Its because the white British are racially discriminated against. You are less likely to get the job because you are a British white person - the supermarket has a policy where they have to employ so many disabled, so many blacks, so many Asians, so many non British Nationals etc - the white British guy is bottom of the list!

Now the local press (thus in turn, now the National press) have picked up on this story to try and turn it into racially motivated - when it is nothing of the sort. The school is top performing and it is top performing because of its rules, rules of which apply to every pupil.

This is a muslim thing once again to target a rule they are not happy with. It goes against the way "they" live. We must all bend over an adhere to the Muslim world must'nt we? it cant be other way around, as that would be discriminating!/

 
Not caught up so I'll be back later, but thought there was something wrong about my last post so checked as I couldn't be arsed last night. The first report I read did mention appearance policy alongside uniform, but only talked about uniform elements hence why that stuck in my head.

For balance and all that, so not as stupid as I first thought, but still don't see how you can really dictate an appearance as long as it's natural, and my point about the teachers stands in light of that.
 
No GT it has nothing to do with a Turban and health and safety on a motorbike.

It's is frankly ridiculous to claim that growing a beard will impair the students ability to receive information, behave as a pupil and respect social values because of a piece of facial muff, and then suggest in the same breath a Turban can provide the same safety function as a helmet and apply them both against a subset of people you have an issue with.

Would this have made the press if it was a white student.

To be fair if I was at this school, I'd put these two kids to shame and really give the teachers something to think about with my ability to look like a hermit.

Uniform, stupid unnatural haircuts, hair dye, excessive piercing yes absolutely agree with.

But unless they look like David Bellamy, given facial growth is a natural part of puberty - what next, should the girls tape their breasts to hold that element of natural puberty back?

Should the girls not be allowed in school for a period - pun intended?

Where do you end 'something natural'.

But go with the racism mate, you are thinking of Winterval which was a Birmingham City Council invention and not Euro invented as some papers claimed, and not asked for by Moslem workers either like others claimed. But go with the headlines, it's easier.

Sorry Northy, bang wrong. The Daily Mail might tell you that, but you're talking extremists, not the majority of those with an Islamic faith. You are unfairly generalising again based on what you read.

As for next post about prescribed length of hair, I'd challenge the school rule. Hair length is natural growth, you can't prescribe it unless you work in an environment where long hair could be a safety issue.

If they match it at the same acceptable length of hair as a female, that's fine - shoulder length or in a pony.

Anything else is a school being excessive, because it's natural and not fake, like hair dye, piercings etc.

I would not support any parent who blindly accepted a school policy of that sort.

And most seem to be falling into this 'find another school trap'. What about those who don't have a choice? A state sponsored school can be your only option. Yes 'paid for' schooling are entitled to demand more, but state funded schools, I feel happy for parents who have more than one option.

Our two will go to the only school in the area that doesn't require a taxi to get them there.

So all this talk about choice, what like the banks, where they all charge the same anyway?

It's a lovely throw away line isn't, if you don't like the ridiculous rules, go elsewhere - what 5 miles away?

Sorry NI, then that policy is contrary to Human Rights whether you like it or not. You cannot dictate for reasons of asthetics what anyone should look like when those asthetics are naturally occurring. If you condone that, then taking to the extreme, do wheelchairs have to be a certain colour, or can they be banned because it doesn't present the right 'example' for a school?

You can take it anyway you want, just cause they write it, doesn't mean it's legal, correct and should be adhered to like the rule saying in woodwork don't use the saw on your dick.

And I also said the media coverage was racially driven....not the school policy so please don't presume an assumption I didn't make.

I don't believe this would've made the press had a white boy gone in with stubble.

And no a school doesn't have the right to self determine what natural aspects of puberty it wants to agree with.

You think they should?

My position isn't as bizarre as yours...blindly accept everything in life?

GT - give it a rest, jump on the white people campaign again be anti Moslem again. It must kill you knowing that people came truly from the 'brown countries'.

:6:

I can't believe in this day and age people not only think a beard or the lack of one is the reason for their high performance, or that a school which is there to educate, not dictate should have the right to tell anybody how to cope with natural body growth.

Should we stop kids from weight training incase they turn into super efficient bullies?

PMSL
 
Just read that, so girls can tie hair back where appropriate, boys have to have a No3 - that's gender discrimination surely.

No mention of hair dye, just extreme hair cuts.

So no they don't deal with 'natural issues' they deal with their own preconditioned views on what people should look like.

So yes, my point about teachers appearance is very valid and proved by their own so called standards.

Teachers should be smartly dressed as well I presume. No tweed for example. Suit and tie at all times for the men, business suit for the women.

They should be setting an example after all.

:17:
 
mike_field - 5/10/2013 23:14

Sorry NI, then that policy is contrary to Human Rights whether you like it or not. You cannot dictate for reasons of asthetics what anyone should look like when those asthetics are naturally occurring. If you condone that, then taking to the extreme, do wheelchairs have to be a certain colour, or can they be banned because it doesn't present the right 'example' for a school?

You can take it anyway you want, just cause they write it, doesn't mean it's legal, correct and should be adhered to like the rule saying in woodwork don't use the saw on your dick.

And I also said the media coverage was racially driven....not the school policy so please don't presume an assumption I didn't make.

I don't believe this would've made the press had a white boy gone in with stubble.

And no a school doesn't have the right to self determine what natural aspects of puberty it wants to agree with.

You think they should?

My position isn't as bizarre as yours...blindly accept everything in life?

PMSL
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Wow! Stunned.
Have had a couple so won't respond tonight.
 
PMSL - go on you know you want to! Go on, go on, go on, go on, go on!

Just don't libel anyone and nobody will really care PMSL

:8:
 
The Fear - 5/10/2013 09:07

ClivetheVillan - 4/10/2013 19:24


FFS i get the moron bit but sticking the Oxy in front o it has confused me, Oxy could mean oxygen so an air moron wtf? :37: :69: :17:
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lol, it's a great word Clive! It's basically a contradiction in terms.

So for example as Jam doesn't believe in God/religion he can see nothing genuine in religous reasons, hence he finds it a contradiction, hence an oxymoron.

Not to be confused with oxycontin which is a cream for zits! :3:
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Nor oxiclean which is 'shockingly' a cleaning product :17:
 
So no they don't deal with 'natural issues' they deal with their own preconditioned views on what people should look like.
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Of course they do. And how far do you want take "natural issues". Growing a beard is like growing hair, finger nails etc - they should be kept tidy and in line with the school rules. I know a workplace where it's workers have to be clean shaven, tidy, clean in appearance, polished shoes etc. If workers come to work without having shaved they are sent home without pay to make themselves respectable.

mike, brown countries? What is wrong with you..That is not issue here.

The issue is not the rule(aka the Turban), its the fact that some sections of society think they should be exempt! I dont care if the school ask all its pupils to dress in pink, this is a school rule and it applies to all pupils - if the Muslim dont like it, then he should find another school. I dont care if the school is 5 miles away or 2000 miles away. To come to this school there are the rules and guidelines, please take it away and read through it, we are a proud school with very high results. - now should this high performing school change rules day by day to suit each pupil's demand? NO!

Would it have made the news if it was a white student? = Would the white student have ran to the press?

I bet this was just another day in the life for the school, of just telling a pupil to dress properly as per the school rules. You know, girls wearing too much make up etc, its all happened before. BUT oh my! The Muslim dont like it - lets kick up some fuss, how dare the school tell me how to look. Local press are told, then the National press get hold of it - yep these two Muslim boys are surely laughing now, they have back up to take this argument the full tilt to this high performing school. The other kids are no doubt cheering them on - yeah get in there my son, ive always wanted to wear make up, ive always wanted long hair or to copy my latest pop star. Poor, poor school - where does it go from here and can they remain high performing after the attack from the muslims?

Turbans on building sites, Christmas slogan banned, school rules in Christian church schools changed - just another day in paradise!
 
This is no different to that stupid Nurse a few years back that insisted on wearing a Cross to work, even though the rules don't allow it.

It's not just Muslims making the headlines for this, it's all the attention grabbing zealots looking for attention.
 
I suppose you have to start off with accepting that these boys are children and children have rights but not the same rights adults have.

These days every parent must sign a contract to fulfil certain conditions, like following the dress code, ensuring homework is done (providing a suitable room, even) and agree with the rules and disciplinary procedures of the school. Teachers also have a set of rules to follow as agreed by the school governors.

If beards are explicitly stated as being contrary to the codes and rules except in specific cases then the boys should comply and the parents should accept the school's ruling.

If we accept that part of school is teaching compliance with social rules and society's laws then the parents and the pupils must accept the school rules as part of the necessity for pupils to learn to accept the school's authority on this matter.

However, if the parents believe that the rules should be changed, they should make a case to change the rule with the board of governors, which will include parents and attempt to change things, not by defiance, but by proper democratic process.

 
"Sorry Northy, bang wrong. The Daily Mail might tell you that, but you're talking extremists, not the majority of those with an Islamic faith. You are unfairly generalising again based on what you read."

Sorry Mike, but having made 3 posts in a row on this thread I'm not sure what you are replying to......or is everything I say wrong on principle? :17:

As for the Daily Mail, I've never read it (that I can recall) so what they write is largely irrelevant to me.

 
I never know the point I'm making, I thought every one knew that.

And Northy, clearly I just object to you on principle. Again, I thought this had been covered :5:

I miss the days where I used to end up arguing with myself because I wasn't paying attention to who made the post. Happy days.
 
You're not getting into the spirit of this thread Fred. That's too sensible.

Green, your making the assumption a beard cannot be well maintained. A school's set of rules in terms of appearance and uniform in essence are designed to ensure equality of look despite a families background, and it's been proven a uniform does give a sense of belonging and helps with discipline.

There is also an element of conformity and not wanting students to find an individual identity.

It's cohesive pride in appearance especially for the local community, it you don't want girls coming out of school wearing only belts, nor boys walking around with their trousers half way down their thighs.

But having a clean shaven rule is just totalitarian and over kill in an educational environment.

And yes a white boy with a goatee would go to the press, it just wouldn't necessarily be picked up any further than local coverage because it doesn't suit the country's current angle which has been expressed brilliantly in this thread.

What was the last one, the two girls who dyed their hair or shaved their hair for charity? They were published as well, think it might have been cancer uk and they'd even been sponsored by a few teachers, but it broke their policy.

That was picked up because of the charity angle to get everyone upset about the nasty school because it was for charidy!
 
Im not making an assumption about anything mike, did you not read where I said they can all dress up in pink for all I care? In other words the actual rule dosnt matter - its that they are refusing to follow the rule that counts. Maybe a white lad with a goatie would just shave it off, so that he could attend school? Then we would hear no more about it! However the 2 muslim boys are looking to take up a stance against the school on this issue. So in turn its made news locally and now Nationally.

Is is a big issue? Maybe it is because next it could be the girls wearing a Hijab - then it could escalate further into no school uniform at all. Robes anyone?

Take a step back from the actual rule itself. And instead look at it, that a rule applies and it is being broken.

Vital Villa forums has rules - if we break them, it is likely removal from the site would take place. Its not about arguing that you dislike a said rule - its that it is in place and if you dont like it, dont join VV. You dont read the rules of the site and deliberately log on to break the rules because you disagree with them. Which is case of these 2 boys. - The parents are fully aware of the appearance and dress code rules and the school sets high standards on such..I dont care really whether you think the actual rule should stand or not - it isnt important as at present it does stand, whether it changes in the future is another debate.
 
Dressing up in pink would be the uniform, it has nothing to do with natural growth of a human body.

And no, it wouldn't be deemed something to get the spirits going amongst a readership - that's why you don't here about any white boys at this school who may have objected as well.

Just like the two white girl got picked up because of the charity link.

It has to be newsworthy and it has to be something a national feel will gain traction, a readership and get comments going because it's how they make money.

The press by design give this a racial twinge, which overlooks what's at play at the core of it.

Vital Villa doesn't have ridiculous rules though :14:

If we did, me and JF would be the worst to argue against it PMSL
 
It's not about affecting their learning, or about silly rules. It's about general discipline and a school set standard to maintain, a trust and respect for authority and a level of self respect to take into life. It makes no difference to a soldiers capability to fight how shiny his buttons are or how well his bed is made, so why insist on them being to such high standards? Because of discipline and a chain of command with a focus on respect.

What I actually can't believe in this case though, is how haven't these lads had the shite kicked out of them by the catholic kids? When I was at school kids with bum fluff got massacred, I remember one kid got ridiculed for years because he foolishly went for a shit in school! If these Muslims had turned up at my school with so much as fluffy tache and a feint smell of curry about them, they wouldn't have made it past registration!!
 
That's about regimented routine to deal with the rigours of the places a soldier may find himself in, and having a mindset of perfection and unflappability - let alone the ability to not question - is desirable.

We are already churning out kids who only know a textbook and very little about life in general, do we need to make it worse?

Where the hell did you go to school PMSL

We used to associate a healthy bumfluff with other development. Well at least the girls did anyway :17:
 
I don't think school should be too different. Okay not to the extreme of armed forces discipline, but I think school standards of respect for teachers from pupils has dropped massively. I fully advocate strict rules on uniform, grooming and appearance by a way of instilling discipline at a basic and immediate level. Schools can be dangerous places (sports equipment, science labs, workshops etc...) when a teacher says "jump!" a pupil should say "how high?"
 
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