General politics thread: | Page 51 | Vital Football

General politics thread:

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Same reason that gammon is ok and coconut isn’t.
That its generally white people calling other white people gammon, whereas your examples that you compare it against are only unacceptable when its someone picking on somebody of a different race?

Let ask you something..
There's an episode of The Wire where a bunch of black kids explain the concept of a 'dragon lady'.
This is a black mum living in poor circumstances who is far too assertive about everything and everyone finds it repugnant.
Is that racist?
 
We live in a time where representation is important, using racist stereotypes is never cool and of your examples only Willie is worthy of comment. The difference is that to date we've not had an Indian James Bond - there has been little balance on TV.

So the next James Bonds should be (in no particular order):

Gay black man
Gay white man
Gay Chinese man
Gay Indian man
Straight black woman
Straight white woman
Straight Chinese woman
Straight Indian woman
Bi......(insert sex/gender/ethnicity/sexual preference)
Bi......(insert sex/gender/ethnicity/sexual preference)
Bi......(insert sex/gender/ethnicity/sexual preference)
Bi......(insert sex/gender/ethnicity/sexual preference)
.
.
.
anything but white, British straight man
 
That its generally white people calling other white people gammon, whereas your examples that you compare it against are only unacceptable when its someone picking on somebody of a different race?

Let ask you something..
There's an episode of The Wire where a bunch of black kids explain the concept of a 'dragon lady'.
This is a black mum living in poor circumstances who is far too assertive about everything and everyone finds it repugnant.
Is that racist?

Why do you assume it’s generally white people calling other white people gammon?
 
Why do you assume it’s generally white people calling other white people gammon?
Because even outside my online bubble, I've only ever seen white people using it.

In fact, on this very forum you objected to white people using the word gammon very recently.

Its not a problem, and certainly not racist. Maybe if you take the insult so personally you should just suck it up instead of immediately gammoning all over the forum :)
 
We live in a time where representation is important, using racist stereotypes is never cool and of your examples only Willie is worthy of comment. The difference is that to date we've not had an Indian James Bond - there has been little balance on TV.

Representation is important but positive discrimination is not the answer to equality. It’s just changing how you divide people by race.

This isn’t about saying ‘it’s cool to be racist’, but is absolutely about ensuring that the message isn’t “it’s cool to take the piss out of this group of people but not this one cus that’s what the world wants right now”.

Does an apology about voicing a much loved character that doesn’t seem to have been an issue for that last 30 years show progression or are we actively seeking out problems that many didn’t think were until now?
 
So the next James Bonds should be (in no particular order):

Gay black man
Gay white man
Gay Chinese man
Gay Indian man
Straight black woman
Straight white woman
Straight Chinese woman
Straight Indian woman
Bi......(insert sex/gender/ethnicity/sexual preference)
Bi......(insert sex/gender/ethnicity/sexual preference)
Bi......(insert sex/gender/ethnicity/sexual preference)
Bi......(insert sex/gender/ethnicity/sexual preference)
.
.
.
anything but white, British straight man

We've had a gay white man :) but 10/10 for being too stupid to get the point.
 
Representation is important but positive discrimination is not the answer to equality. It’s just changing how you divide people by race.

This isn’t about saying ‘it’s cool to be racist’, but is absolutely about ensuring that the message isn’t “it’s cool to take the piss out of this group of people but not this one cus that’s what the world wants right now”.

Does an apology about voicing a much loved character that doesn’t seem to have been an issue for that last 30 years show progression or are we actively seeking out problems that many didn’t think were until now?

It's embarrassing in the same way that something like Mind Your Language is now. Times change and what's acceptable changes. That's not a bad thing, and if am apology helps people who have been hurt what does it cost,
 
It's embarrassing in the same way that something like Mind Your Language is now. Times change and what's acceptable changes. That's not a bad thing, and if am apology helps people who have been hurt what does it cost,

It costs a lot when there isn’t consistency or a line to know what’s deemed acceptable and what isn’t. This isn’t a genuine apology because somebody’s worried they’ve offended a group of people in the heat of the moment, this is a case of a big business protecting their brand at a time where race debate is everywhere you look, for something that has never been brought into question until now.

You might see it as progressive or moving with the times but I see it as yet more ammunition to create divide amongst people, which is becoming very damaging. It’s never been so toxic. Every other article in the news is about how something might be racist and it absolutely translates to social media. It dilutes genuine racism that exists everyday.

Once you start censoring humour or removing certain groups from it inconsistently, people don’t know what is or isn’t acceptable.

Take Ricky Gervais as an example - he has a go at everybody and is incredibly controversial in a very ironic way, but if I were to put you in charge of the editing of his Fame stand up show where he mocks overweight people, white trash chavs, teenage cancer victims, people with autism, African people, Muslims and Christians, which of it would you edit out or deem worthy of an apology?

You could argue absolutely all of them..... but his whole career has been built around mocking everything and everyone, which is why from a controversial perspective, he’s actually one of the least divisive.

He’s an extreme example, but you’re more likely to create harmony amongst people by showing that nobody is exempt from comedic scrutiny.
 
It costs a lot when there isn’t consistency or a line to know what’s deemed acceptable and what isn’t. This isn’t a genuine apology because somebody’s worried they’ve offended a group of people in the heat of the moment, this is a case of a big business protecting their brand at a time where race debate is everywhere you look, for something that has never been brought into question until now.

You might see it as progressive or moving with the times but I see it as yet more ammunition to create divide amongst people, which is becoming very damaging. It’s never been so toxic. Every other article in the news is about how something might be racist and it absolutely translates to social media. It dilutes genuine racism that exists everyday.

Once you start censoring humour or removing certain groups from it inconsistently, people don’t know what is or isn’t acceptable.

Take Ricky Gervais as an example - he has a go at everybody and is incredibly controversial in a very ironic way, but if I were to put you in charge of the editing of his Fame stand up show where he mocks overweight people, white trash chavs, teenage cancer victims, people with autism, African people, Muslims and Christians, which of it would you edit out or deem worthy of an apology?

You could argue absolutely all of them..... but his whole career has been built around mocking everything and everyone, which is why from a controversial perspective, he’s actually one of the least divisive.

He’s an extreme example, but you’re more likely to create harmony amongst people by showing that nobody is exempt from comedic scrutiny.

There is a difference between comedic scrutiny and creating a racial stereotype that gives legitimacy to bigoted views.

Censorship is a slippery slope but there are times it's appropriate. Google the film Pretty Baby, do you think that is acceptable? It was 30 years ago, to the point where photographs were sold at Christies.

We don't know what is happening with Apu yet but we do know Carl is continuing, just with a black actor.
 
We live in a time where representation is important, using racist stereotypes is never cool and of your examples only Willie is worthy of comment. The difference is that to date we've not had an Indian James Bond - there has been little balance on TV.

While i can agree with this, this does not explain or justify why one set of prejudice is somehow more important. It certainly doesnt help dealing constructively with social sterotypes and prejudices because it seeks to stratify victimhood imo
 
Representation is important but positive discrimination is not the answer to equality. It’s just changing how you divide people by race.

This isn’t about saying ‘it’s cool to be racist’, but is absolutely about ensuring that the message isn’t “it’s cool to take the piss out of this group of people but not this one cus that’s what the world wants right now”.

Does an apology about voicing a much loved character that doesn’t seem to have been an issue for that last 30 years show progression or are we actively seeking out problems that many didn’t think were until now?
No I think it's about looking at yourself and thinking " I was wrong there" - about growing up and realizing that the stuff you used to laugh about waa perhaps a bit silly and possibly even unintentionally hurtful.

I used to watch The Simpsons regularly 25-30 years ago and just started watching the early shows again with my 10 year old daughter. She's enjoying it but time has moved on and I'm not finding it as hilarious as I did back in the day. (It's not that I find it racist personally, but watching it now it sounds very didactic, normative, and generally PG compared to how I remembered it)

Hank Azaria has every right to apologize if he finds that times have changed and the character he played was (however unintentionally) racist. I don't think he was playing a deliberatly racist character. I have worked with Hindus / Indians that find him funny.

But, I also know that if I was to go back to listen to myself 30 years ago some of the things I used to laugh at then would seem embarrassing now. Some of my jokes then would sound horribly homophobic now ( for example) . If I had recorded those jokes for posterity I may well want to apologize now too?
 
No I think it's about looking at yourself and thinking " I was wrong there" - about growing up and realizing that the stuff you used to laugh about waa perhaps a bit silly and possibly even unintentionally hurtful.

I used to watch The Simpsons regularly 25-30 years ago and just started watching the early shows again with my 10 year old daughter. She's enjoying it but time has moved on and I'm not finding it as hilarious as I did back in the day. (It's not that I find it racist personally, but watching it now it sounds very didactic, normative, and generally PG compared to how I remembered it)

Hank Azaria has every right to apologize if he finds that times have changed and the character he played was (however unintentionally) racist. I don't think he was playing a deliberatly racist character. I have worked with Hindus / Indians that find him funny.

But, I also know that if I was to go back to listen to myself 30 years ago some of the things I used to laugh at then would seem embarrassing now. Some of my jokes then would sound horribly homophobic now ( for example) . If I had recorded those jokes for posterity I may well want to apologize now too?

But my point is, why is one acceptable and the other isn’t? Who decides what’s inappropriate and what isn’t? At what point does stereotyping a scot for example become worthy of an apology. It might not depict race, but it does culture.

It’s not that I disagree with you that times have changed but to what extent do you censor humour? Just because somebody’s offended at something doesn’t mean they’re right. Offense is about feelings and feelings are subjective to the person watching it.
 
But my point is, why is one acceptable and the other isn’t? Who decides what’s inappropriate and what isn’t? At what point does stereotyping a scot for example become worthy of an apology. It might not depict race, but it does culture.

It’s not that I disagree with you that times have changed but to what extent do you censor humour? Just because somebody’s offended at something doesn’t mean they’re right. Offense is about feelings and feelings are subjective to the person watching it.

Same cuts both ways, just because you're not offended that doesn't mean you're right. The values you hold, that I hold, that others hold are not intrinsically more valuable.
 
While i can agree with this, this does not explain or justify why one set of prejudice is somehow more important. It certainly doesnt help dealing constructively with social sterotypes and prejudices because it seeks to stratify victimhood imo

There is a hierarchy like it or not, and white men sit at the top of it.
 
But my point is, why is one acceptable and the other isn’t? Who decides what’s inappropriate and what isn’t? At what point does stereotyping a scot for example become worthy of an apology. It might not depict race, but it does culture.

It’s not that I disagree with you that times have changed but to what extent do you censor humour? Just because somebody’s offended at something doesn’t mean they’re right. Offense is about feelings and feelings are subjective to the person watching it.

So if Apu wears an Hawaiian shirt is the racism cancelled out?

Just can't keep up.

https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2021/apr/12/hawaiian-shirts-fashion-trend-expert
 
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