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But they don’t rot forever, particularly young offenders.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/n...er-trial-Video-shows-defendants-laughing.html

Remember that PC Andrew Harper who was dragged with the car. They laughed as they were sentenced. It just makes me sick. I don’t want to sound like I enjoy the thought of killing people, but I also don’t enjoy the thought of innocent people dying whilst they get to live their life in any form.

I just keep imaging if that Sarah was my partner or my one of my sisters - I don’t know how anyone could ever come to terms with their killer being able to carry on.

Regardless of whether it’s capital punishment, the justice system is generally flawed and lenient. It’s a bad example for young offenders.

Because forgiveness is a better way to move forward than hate...

I'm just not prepared to kill innocent people and I'm certainly not prepared to execute children no matter what their crimes.

Capital punishment doesn't lower murder rates, harsher punishments in general don't change crime rates. Something more fundamental is required.
 
Because forgiveness is a better way to move forward than hate...

I'm just not prepared to kill innocent people and I'm certainly not prepared to execute children no matter what their crimes.

Capital punishment doesn't lower murder rates, harsher punishments in general don't change crime rates. Something more fundamental is required.

What do you think that is?
 
What do you think that is?

That's a better question, and no easy answers. There are some good suggestions here:

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...s-to-reduce-in-the-worlds-most-violent-cities

Parents, poverty, society, rehabilitation, hope etc in short. We'll never eliminate crime sadly but just locking up or executing doesn't work, that we do know. Even with all the initiatives and changes in the world some people are just broken I think, and all of us have an evil twin under the surface.
 
But they don’t rot forever, particularly young offenders.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/n...er-trial-Video-shows-defendants-laughing.html

Remember that PC Andrew Harper who was dragged with the car. They laughed as they were sentenced. It just makes me sick. I don’t want to sound like I enjoy the thought of killing people, but I also don’t enjoy the thought of innocent people dying whilst they get to live their life in any form.

I just keep imaging if that Sarah was my partner or my one of my sisters - I don’t know how anyone could ever come to terms with their killer being able to carry on.

Regardless of whether it’s capital punishment, the justice system is generally flawed and lenient. It’s a bad example for young offenders.
They don't laugh much in prison I don't think.

Capital punishment is a massive red line for me. I think it is one of the most barbaric things a society can do. For the state to murder someone, to tell them the date and hour of their death...

That isn't justice. It's revenge. The Danes and Norse were more civilised; they just paid compensation or fought over it.

The state doesn't consider rape of male rapists to he a fitting punishment. Why should we consider the murder of murderers? Why on earth would you have two murders instead of one?
 
They don't laugh much in prison I don't think.

Capital punishment is a massive red line for me. I think it is one of the most barbaric things a society can do. For the state to murder someone, to tell them the date and hour of their death...

That isn't justice. It's revenge. The Danes and Norse were more civilised; they just paid compensation or fought over it.

The state doesn't consider rape of male rapists to he a fitting punishment. Why should we consider the murder of murderers? Why on earth would you have two murders instead of one?

I’m sure if you speak to the victims of the families who’ve had their loved ones viciously taken away, they wouldn’t see ‘justice’ in sending the evil strain on society to a prison.

Id also bet my house you’d have have less overall murders as a result of it.
 
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Because it might result in zero murders in some cases, that’s why.
It doesn't though. Human beings have been trying that one for thousands of years and it's failed for thousands of years.

The violence and murder rate is the lowest worldwide now that it has ever been.

The only thing that has ever stopped murders is rising living standards and possibly removal of the tools (IE guns).

Don't know the stats but I imagine the vast, vast majority of murders are spur of the moment and not planned.
 
Specific threads get clogged up so thought I'd make a general one.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...k-orders-public-inquiry-into-cumbria-coalmine

Good. So far I'm reasonably impressed by this government on an environmental front. To be clear it's not enough but it's certainly much more than I expected.

Corbyn wanted to reopen mines incidentally...

Its an unfortunate fact that if the world wants Primary Steel making capabilities then it needs coal (actually coke) as part of the process. The Carbon element in Carbon steel needs to come from somewhere.

The mine in Cumbria would only produce steel making coal, its properties are very much aligned for the steel making furnaces we have in the UK. It would not be used for anything else except maybe a few steam locomotives, but even then its probably not going to burn hot enough.

In fact consider the market for thermal generation coal in the UK.
We have 3 coal fired power stations operating, Drax, (2 units) West Burton and Ratcliffe (4 units each).
Drax announced last week that it had ended commercial generation on its two coal units, and they would only operate in an emergency situation from now on (We had at least 8 of those last winter when the wind wasn't blowing or the sun shinning, or winter as its known)

West Burton will probably keep 2 units in reserve for next winter and to cover in case Hinkley B and/or Hunterston find more cracks in the reactors (both will close in 2 years anyway) and have to shut down.

Ratcliffe is pretty much in the same position.

Either way coal generation will be forced to stop in 2025 due to legislation. in reality in will be long before that due to statutory requirements required to keep a generating unit operational.

So despite all the protests on the Cumbrian mine, and the attempts to link the production there to power generation, there isn't a market for thermal coal in the UK.
The bottom line is that the people and organisations complaining about the mine and using generation as an argument are misleading the public. This is about objections coal, the new pariah, even when their are no alternatives. Or do we close the Primary Steel making facilities in the UK?

CO2 production aside, the mine is being sunk on a old chemical plant, formally owned by Albright and Wilson...it made volatile base products for the washing powders, the next door neighbour to the south is Sellafield, the environmental impact of the mine will be negligible compared to either of these.

I understand the issues with burning coal for power generation. If the previous government had listened to advice, all the coal generation could have been removed from the grid now, replaced by 10GW of reliable, renewable generation, which in turn would have removed a similar amount of gas generation from the system.

As a final point, I wonder what the people and organisations complaining about the mine think about the fact that through the coldest part of this last winter, only the generation by Drax, West Burton and Ratcliffe, prevented blackouts.
I wonder if they would have been happy to lose their lights, heating and cooking, have to park their electric cars? No trains. What would they have done with the internet down?
Coal generation kept all those systems on, blissfully ignored by all. They never seemed to complain then, which does seem somewhat hypocritical.


 
I’m sure if you speak to the victims of the families who’ve had their loved ones viciously taken away, they wouldn’t see ‘justice’ in sending the evil strain on society to a prison.

Id also bet my house you’d have have less overall murders as a result of it.
And that is why the victims or their families are exactly the last people who should ever have a say in "justice".

Because when it affects you, it isn't justice you want. It's revenge. If someone hurt my kids, I can assure you that my idea of justice would be very warped indeed. But revenge does not bring a loved one back even 1%. And a justice system should be based on justice, rather than revenge.

Evil is a point of view. Society views paedophiles as the devil's incarnate now, but for much of human history a 13 year old girl was considered the perfect marriage age. Even today in an America that hates paedophilia, most look the other way when for a child bride in a religious community.

As for murder... Well, there is no historical moral compass the human race can reliably point to for that.

Every stat i have ever seen about the death penalty tells me that I will get your house. Where is it? Is it nice?
 
Its an unfortunate fact that if the world wants Primary Steel making capabilities then it needs coal (actually coke) as part of the process. The Carbon element in Carbon steel needs to come from somewhere.

The mine in Cumbria would only produce steel making coal, its properties are very much aligned for the steel making furnaces we have in the UK. It would not be used for anything else except maybe a few steam locomotives, but even then its probably not going to burn hot enough.

In fact consider the market for thermal generation coal in the UK.
We have 3 coal fired power stations operating, Drax, (2 units) West Burton and Ratcliffe (4 units each).
Drax announced last week that it had ended commercial generation on its two coal units, and they would only operate in an emergency situation from now on (We had at least 8 of those last winter when the wind wasn't blowing or the sun shinning, or winter as its known)

West Burton will probably keep 2 units in reserve for next winter and to cover in case Hinkley B and/or Hunterston find more cracks in the reactors (both will close in 2 years anyway) and have to shut down.

Ratcliffe is pretty much in the same position.

Either way coal generation will be forced to stop in 2025 due to legislation. in reality in will be long before that due to statutory requirements required to keep a generating unit operational.

So despite all the protests on the Cumbrian mine, and the attempts to link the production there to power generation, there isn't a market for thermal coal in the UK.
The bottom line is that the people and organisations complaining about the mine and using generation as an argument are misleading the public. This is about objections coal, the new pariah, even when their are no alternatives. Or do we close the Primary Steel making facilities in the UK?

CO2 production aside, the mine is being sunk on a old chemical plant, formally owned by Albright and Wilson...it made volatile base products for the washing powders, the next door neighbour to the south is Sellafield, the environmental impact of the mine will be negligible compared to either of these.

I understand the issues with burning coal for power generation. If the previous government had listened to advice, all the coal generation could have been removed from the grid now, replaced by 10GW of reliable, renewable generation, which in turn would have removed a similar amount of gas generation from the system.

As a final point, I wonder what the people and organisations complaining about the mine think about the fact that through the coldest part of this last winter, only the generation by Drax, West Burton and Ratcliffe, prevented blackouts.
I wonder if they would have been happy to lose their lights, heating and cooking, have to park their electric cars? No trains. What would they have done with the internet down?
Coal generation kept all those systems on, blissfully ignored by all. They never seemed to complain then, which does seem somewhat hypocritical.



There are alternatives to coal fired powerstations...

The Steel industry causes 7-9% of global emissions, so yes actually it is time we reassed it's use. You might be happy to blindly march off a cliff edge but I'm not.

There already are alternatives, such as using rubber tyres that would otherwise end up in landfill instead of coal and coke.

We can also shift to direct reduction, Energiron facilities can already use up to 70% hydrogen, and they’ve also trialled 100% hydrogen. Oh and the hydrogen an come from either fossil fuels or renewable.

I worked in this field too and I think you're doing the misleading.
 
I’m sure if you speak to the victims of the families who’ve had their loved ones viciously taken away, they wouldn’t see ‘justice’ in sending the evil strain on society to a prison.

Id also bet my house you’d have have less overall murders as a result of it.

Justice has to be fair, equal and balanced for everyone; emotion has no place in Justice.

The kind of law and order you speak of would lead to more violence and more murder.

As for betting your house there would be less murder; have a look what the murder rates are like in comparison in the good old US of A where they do have the death penalty.
 
There are alternatives to coal fired powerstations...

The Steel industry causes 7-9% of global emissions, so yes actually it is time we reassed it's use. You might be happy to blindly march off a cliff edge but I'm not.

There already are alternatives, such as using rubber tyres that would otherwise end up in landfill instead of coal and coke.

We can also shift to direct reduction, Energiron facilities can already use up to 70% hydrogen, and they’ve also trialled 100% hydrogen. Oh and the hydrogen an come from either fossil fuels or renewable.

I worked in this field too and I think you're doing the misleading.

I’m glad you agree that their is an alternative to coal fired generation. As I stated, we could be coal free now and 10GW of gas removed too, all replaced by renewables. The reason we aren’t is political.

Lots of different methods in providing carbon sources are/have being tried in steel making, How many have been scaled up to provide commercially viable systems? How many have 100% replaced coke with tyres (or anything else) permanently in the manufacturing process? How many have been successfully tried in primary steel making?

The Energiron process is very good, but it makes Direct Reduced Iron, not Steel. The hydrogen I believe can come from natural gas, COG or SYNGAS, obviously GOG being a by-product of turning metallurgical coal into coke.
Using DRI definitely has benefits, but not if you are making large quantites of primary steel, blast furnaces are still needed for that.

If we are to reassess industry based on carbon emissions alone, do we need to shut down the cement industry too, approx 8% of global CO2 output? Do we have an alternative product? I don’t think we do.

As you have worked in this field I’m sure you will appreciate the efforts being made with BECCS. This also needs to be scaled up to full commercial viability, which is ongoing. If it works, and it will, we have the potential to be carbon negative on heavy industrial plants, including steel manufacture. That becomes a game changer.

Again, from someone in the field, you will recognise that technology like BECCS is further down the development line than experimenting with alternative fuels in manufacturing processes or battery storage systems that are exhausted in 15 minutes when they are called upon to provide full nameplate capacity.
Such things maybe the future, I hope they are, but we are some way off at the moment.

2027 is the target to have a commercially viable CCS plant up and operating, (we did the BE bit a decade ago) and that includes a 2 year planning process. If the government doesn’t back down every time someone complains about a chimney smoking (it’s actually steam you can see) and supports the process, the environmental benefits will be significantly greater than planting another 21GW of wind turbines offshore.

Welcome to the cliff edge, there are quite a few people who have been here a while now trying to figure out a workable solution to this problem. Unfortunately the problem is often is politicised by people who don’t have a clue what they are talking about.

Carrying on regardless is not an option (that also includes habitat loss, de-forestation, marine pollution you could go on), neither is objecting to every proposal without having a viable alternative solution. And that unfortunately is generally the norm, and sadly those professional protesters shout loudest.
 
I’m glad you agree that their is an alternative to coal fired generation. As I stated, we could be coal free now and 10GW of gas removed too, all replaced by renewables. The reason we aren’t is political.

Lots of different methods in providing carbon sources are/have being tried in steel making, How many have been scaled up to provide commercially viable systems? How many have 100% replaced coke with tyres (or anything else) permanently in the manufacturing process? How many have been successfully tried in primary steel making?

The Energiron process is very good, but it makes Direct Reduced Iron, not Steel. The hydrogen I believe can come from natural gas, COG or SYNGAS, obviously GOG being a by-product of turning metallurgical coal into coke.
Using DRI definitely has benefits, but not if you are making large quantites of primary steel, blast furnaces are still needed for that.

If we are to reassess industry based on carbon emissions alone, do we need to shut down the cement industry too, approx 8% of global CO2 output? Do we have an alternative product? I don’t think we do.

As you have worked in this field I’m sure you will appreciate the efforts being made with BECCS. This also needs to be scaled up to full commercial viability, which is ongoing. If it works, and it will, we have the potential to be carbon negative on heavy industrial plants, including steel manufacture. That becomes a game changer.

Again, from someone in the field, you will recognise that technology like BECCS is further down the development line than experimenting with alternative fuels in manufacturing processes or battery storage systems that are exhausted in 15 minutes when they are called upon to provide full nameplate capacity.
Such things maybe the future, I hope they are, but we are some way off at the moment.

2027 is the target to have a commercially viable CCS plant up and operating, (we did the BE bit a decade ago) and that includes a 2 year planning process. If the government doesn’t back down every time someone complains about a chimney smoking (it’s actually steam you can see) and supports the process, the environmental benefits will be significantly greater than planting another 21GW of wind turbines offshore.

Welcome to the cliff edge, there are quite a few people who have been here a while now trying to figure out a workable solution to this problem. Unfortunately the problem is often is politicised by people who don’t have a clue what they are talking about.

Carrying on regardless is not an option (that also includes habitat loss, de-forestation, marine pollution you could go on), neither is objecting to every proposal without having a viable alternative solution. And that unfortunately is generally the norm, and sadly those professional protesters shout loudest.

Not welcome to the edge, my first published paper was at uni in 1994...(admittedly on economic growth and environmental consequences).

How about SSAB, LKAB and Vattenfal and the hybrit system? SSAB believe they'll be fossil free by 2026.

That's not to mention how much we throw away (and other metals) each year. We recycle less than 60%...
 
I fear it is just to save face. A COP out (- see what I did there?)

As Feco has said, there are knock on effects that might be worse regarding the steel industry. Off-shoring the footprint doesn't help anyone other than our local targets.

I don't know what is best on balance. But if the only result is that the coal is mined in another country and shipped here on stinky diesel ships then I don't see the merit beyond numbers and optics.
we could perhaps think outside the box and forget the steel industry and therefore not need coke int he first place. Instead invest in future composites, hemp for example, we know theres many things stronger than steel so why are we still using steel if its part of the damage curve?
 
OK so let's imagine for second...
A forest fan gets stabbed at a football match.
The next day, the police turn up at your house to tell you that Forest fans aren't allowed to go to football matches for the next month in case any of them get hurt.
How do you react?

in all these cases people should be saying 'individual' not male or female or white or black, its all the same thing. Some of the females on tv this week saying like 'men need to stop killing women' just makes me cringe, they come across as sexist. But thats fook all to do with me or 90% of other men, who are all individuals.
 
Having gone through all of our reform systems between the ages of 16 and 21 Im 100% proof that the system is 100% fail on every sense.

My first experience waiting in a remand centre, 23 hours a day lock up, piss pot in the corner, 4 men to a 2 man cell, despite I was only 16 and waiting 9 months to go to court for something that I would prob have got a slapped wrist.

I was really in there simply because my old man was violent at the time and the stress was too much so I left home and kinda lived on the street a bit so when I got in trouble I said I had no address and I ended up there.

Looking back I was a bitter man for maybe the next 10 years. Violent, binge drinking, noisy relationships, career choices all gone, chip on the shoulder and with many new criminal friends from circles I would have never have mixed with in a hundred years before that. I was just a quiet lad that wanted to play footy 24 hrs a day. To be honest, Ive never really recovered from that, not really.

YC, Prison.. what was the point? I had a lot to offer the world but still had no security at all once I left the 4 walls. Its kinda hard to live and not wheel n deal just to get by..

I was never institutionlised tho, more brave and stubborn, out of maybe 6 criminal aquaintences back then, 3 are prob still in there now for all I know, got into more serious crime, stabbing, kidnapping.. A couple of them not quite wired up right anymore.

My last time in there we were all broke out of the town police station, real cool stuff, they came and opened up half the roof on the exercise yard inside the centre of the police station and off they went. I stayed, couldnt be arsed running any more. On his next arrest my 'm8' stabbed the copper trying to get away.. Jeez, he was a mouse too. slippery shitty slope.

They breed contempt and anger and violence and crime and remove choices and quality of life but in reality 90% of prisoners probabaly do not belong in a place like this. Maybe if I watched an American Prison break episode then some of those might 'need' to be in a place that protects us from them and them from themselves, but nobody else does, these are just your neighbours with 100 reasons to do the wrong thing in the wrong place for the right or wrong reasons.

As for the serious violent offenders et al as ive said, we instill it even more in these places. I dont know the answers, id be all lefty rightly and say let them all have thier own town and run it and manasge it all themselves, so if they kill each other then its only each other lol
 
Justice has to be fair, equal and balanced for everyone; emotion has no place in Justice.

The kind of law and order you speak of would lead to more violence and more murder.

As for betting your house there would be less murder; have a look what the murder rates are like in comparison in the good old US of A where they do have the death penalty.

Good argument.

I just despise the fact that some of these people get the light of day that their victims don’t. There isn’t a ‘fair’ conclusion I suppose, but I just can’t help but feel that our justice system doesn’t suffice.
 
Good argument.

I just despise the fact that some of these people get the light of day that their victims don’t. There isn’t a ‘fair’ conclusion I suppose, but I just can’t help but feel that our justice system doesn’t suffice.
There isn't a fair conclusion when you are talking about murder or life changing crimes. Particularly murder, but crimes where the victim ends up disabled for life can be equally tragic.

Remember, someone given a life sentence is given exactly that. They only ever leave prison on life license. They can be recalled immediately at any point; one of Jamie Bulger's killers has been recalled loads of times.

Your prospects for having a job or a life after murder are pretty much nill. Certainly in middle class circles, you can pretty much forget ever getting a job again. I'm sure in some working class industries a criminal record is a lot more accepted; but who employs a murderer?

How many first dates are going to become second dates after you drop that little bombshell?

And what have you lost? 15-20 years? This copper won't come out until his 60's or 70's now. Even a young man of 20 can't expect to see freedom until 35 or 40 on life license. By that time, you've lost too much. Very few come out and live anything even close to a life you would consider worth having, and none will ever be accepted by other people or their community.

Yes, they have a freedom to go to the movies or get a coffee that their victim doesn't; but you can't assume that their punishment ends with the parole board
 
Not welcome to the edge, my first published paper was at uni in 1994...(admittedly on economic growth and environmental consequences).

How about SSAB, LKAB and Vattenfal and the hybrit system? SSAB believe they'll be fossil free by 2026.

That's not to mention how much we throw away (and other metals) each year. We recycle less than 60%...

1994.....I had just left the mining industry on a full time basis. It seems a lifetime away, I actually get claustrophobic thinking about it now.

The SSAB process is interesting, but essentially is still a DRI process and it’s still not scaled up. Admittedly it removes the need for blast furnaces in making the final product, which is good, but there is still along way to go until it is able to produce the volumes that BF’s do. And that’s a problem.

I agree that recycling needs to improve, for everything really, but particularly metals.
Net Zero is not enough, we need to be negative emissions (and not just CO2).
Carbon Capture, Allam Cycle, reversing de-forestation and habitat loss can all help.

One small coal mine in Cumbria that helps produce the raw materials that build the carbon removal tools we will need is not a huge problem.
We need this materials now, and the manufacturing methods on the scale that is needed are currently limited.
The coal will still be produced somewhere, and the carbon footprint to deliver to our steel works will be considerably higher.
It’s definitely not ideal, but short term not disastrous.

What really frustrates me is there is so much technology out there that could start making a real difference, but the powers that be seem to think that planting wind turbines and covering the land with solar panels is the answer.
This winter has again proved that is not the case.
 
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