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Freedom of Speech

I just don't see how society is telling women to do women jobs Heath. We're not living the 1950's. Female empowerment has been prevalent during pretty much my whole lifetime.

What areas of society exactly do you mean? Movies? Advertising? Television? Education?

Men and women are not the same. They are in a lot of ways, but not in many others. Women are more empathetic than men, it's not a big secret. They will then tend to gravitate towards careers like teaching, nursing etc. Not all of course, but probably the majority. What's wrong with that? These jobs are just as important in society.

You may think the research is biased, but there is avalanche of absolute bullshit coming from modern feminists on this topic.
 
It works both ways. Do you think men do jobs because they want to without influence? You say the evidence is flawed, but it is clear as day. When women enter male dominated industries in greater numbers, wages drop.

Whatever you tell men and women, what they see will dictate what most of them aspire to. It's a little naive to ignore these influences.

You also have to differentiate between equal pay and the gender pay gap. They are very different animals.
 
Do you see much women working on building sites or in the mines? Or in steel factories or oil rigs?

Is it because society tells them they can't do it or is it the vast majority are just not physically capable of doing those jobs? Because of basic biology?

Do you think female footballers could play alongside men in the Premier League? Some people think the only reason that's not happening is because of the "patriarchy". Would you agree with that?
 
Do you see much women working on building sites or in the mines? Or in steel factories or oil rigs?

Is it because society tells them they can't do it or is it the vast majority are just not physically capable of doing those jobs? Because of basic biology?

Do you think female footballers could play alongside men in the Premier League? Some people think the only reason that's not happening is because of the "patriarchy". Would you agree with that?

I did ask that you look at the difference between equal pay and the gender pay gap. You've given some good examples of the first, but that's it.

To understand the second you have to answer questions like, why do Janitors get paid more than maids? Why do we pay less for jobs like Nursing? Why is it that when men start participating in an industry pay goes up (the opposite of wages going down when women join)?

When analysing the figures they adjust for examples such as you quote, but that still leaves about 9% unexplained. Why is it that we don't value women who work as much as men?
 
I did ask that you look at the difference between equal pay and the gender pay gap. You've given some good examples of the first, but that's it.

To understand the second you have to answer questions like, why do Janitors get paid more than maids? Why do we pay less for jobs like Nursing? Why is it that when men start participating in an industry pay goes up (the opposite of wages going down when women join)?

When analysing the figures they adjust for examples such as you quote, but that still leaves about 9% unexplained. Why is it that we don't value women who work as much as men?


The issue I have regarding the gender pay gap here in Norway is that those campaigning for equal pay pretty much always go on to say that the biggest problem is that there are more women in part time employment than men and this is why women get paid less.....they seem to want equal pay for half the number of hours. (and no, they are not complaining about hourly rates but total pay) One could ask why there are more women in part time employment than men but this is an easy one to answeer, many women choose this as they want to be available for their young children too. This was certainly the case in our home and in many others I know of. In each and every case I know of, when doing equal work and equal hours, men and women hav parity of pay. Perhaps not the situation everywhere but it is in every case I personally know of: Probably due to Norway's strict employment laws, put in place by a succession of very left wing governments.
 
Why do we pay less for jobs like Nursing?


Less compared to what? To doctors? Well nursing is a lower qualified and less critical job in terms of decision making and overall responsibility. Or are you comparing nurses to another group?
 
When they give you figures it is always broken down to an hourly rate. It shouldn't matte rthat it is part time. The rate of pay should be the same.

As for Nurses, well, take your pick. Plumbers earn more. The same with every female dominated jobs.

We just don;t value the jobs we associate women with, and hence don't pay them enough. The fact they've accepted it for so long is part of the problem, but so are the men who are usually the ones dictating what the staff get paid.
 
Plumbers do not earn more unless they are self employed. As you know yourself, when you are self employed, you are worth whatever you can get, and this applies to any self employed work. As for part time, hourly they don't get less over here, in some instances they actually get a little more (one if my sons has a part time job and gets a slightly higher hourly rate than his full time colleagues) but as I mentioned, I'm only referring to Norway with it's heavily regulated employment structure.
 
The Federation of Master Builders did a survey in March, and the average Plumber salary (employed) was £48,675.

I don't know many Nurses on that much. A few at the upper echelons, maybe, but when they are turning to food banks, where does that leave us? In what World do we devalue such a valuable contribution? If it were largely male dominated, would their wages have lost 12% in real terms over the last 5 years?

The gender pay gap exists, and it should prompt more questions than it appears to. Isn't it time we re-evaluated what we consider important to us?
 
Interestingly, totaljobs.com gives the average wage for plumbers and nurses as identicle at £31,787. Considering the acknowledged opportunity for self employed plumbers to earn more than employed plumbers and the fact that very few nurses are self employed, I'd say that most nurses earn more than most plumbers if (and it is an if) totaljobs.com is correct, with a minority of self employed plumbers earning a good deal more.
 
I did ask that you look at the difference between equal pay and the gender pay gap. You've given some good examples of the first, but that's it.

To understand the second you have to answer questions like, why do Janitors get paid more than maids? Why do we pay less for jobs like Nursing? Why is it that when men start participating in an industry pay goes up (the opposite of wages going down when women join)?

When analysing the figures they adjust for examples such as you quote, but that still leaves about 9% unexplained. Why is it that we don't value women who work as much as men?

Well at least we agree that there are other factors rather than gender that affect the figures. That is something modern feminists don't want to know about.

And yes, there is a problem with jobs such as teaching and nursing being underpaid. I know that these are female dominated areas. Do male teachers earn more than their female counterparts, taking into consideration position, length of time at the job etc.? It's hard to find unbiased data for it, maybe I'll ask my mother and sister who are both teachers.

Maybe a problem is female assertiveness. Men tend to ask for raises more in their jobs, according to Jordan Peterson anyway. Females need to be more assertive.

Again, the problem I have with modern feminism is that they want everything handed to them. Simply because they are female.

The bottom line is that if a man and a woman do the exact same job, same hours, same amount of work, then the pay must be equal.
 
Again, equal pay versus gender pay gap. I think we're coming from different angles to the same point!!! It's illegal to pay different wages for the same job, so that is less prevalent, but the fact we don't value some of the more caring occupations speaks volumes.

The causes are many, but having out of date pay structures, set out when men were largely in charge, doesn't help.

The job of ticket agent went from mainly male to female and wages dropped 43%. The same thing happened when women in large numbers became designers (wages fell 34%), housekeepers (wages fell 21%) and biologists (wages fell 18%).

Computer programming, though, used to be a relatively menial role done by women. But when male programmers began to outnumber female ones, the job began paying more and gained prestige.

We just don't value female associated roles, and that isn't right.
 
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It's a rather more complicated issue than purely gender though, for example, call centre work is traditionally dominated by women, pay in this area has gone form average to poor. The reason for this is the change in technology.

A perfect example of this was my old job at BT in the 150 customer service centre. When I first started we had extensive training and were given reasonable financial responsibility in terms of customer compensation. As we had this responsibility we were placed on the management pay scale, a decent hourly rate at the time, soon though some bright park realised that if the UI used by the customer service team was more automated and updated they would no longer need to train people to the same level (the system would prompt them) and they would no longer need to train/pay people for the financial responsibility as the system would take care of that aspect. Basically the job went from a highly trained responsibility to a "robotic" in nature, call centre where none of the employees had any real responsibility or opportunity to do anything other than what the UI allowed, leading to the highly trained and reasoably trained staff being gradually replaced by lower paid system opperators.

This may well contribute to the gender pay gap but it has nothing to do with gender politics and everything to do with technology and internal economics changing the perameters of the job.
 
I'm afraid it is still the female dominated industries that show the lower pay, though, Ian.

It isn't just a case of saying women get paid less. They can analyse why, and if you take away the logical, justifiable reasons, there is still a gap.

The fact that we don't value educating our children is a sad indictment of how far we still have to go.
 
Is teaching really an industry dominated by women? I know that this is not evidence but when I was a student I studied at one of the the countries top colleges for teacher training (I didn't train as a teacher) and the split there seemed faily equal.
 
Moreso primary schools, but that is just as important I think.

I read somewhere that of the bottom 40 industries for pay, 33 were dominated by women. Of the top 40, 31 were male dominated. In an ideal World there should be an even spread.
 
I think we're coming from different angles to the same point!!!

Yeah, I don't think it's the first time either Heath :lol:

I do fully agree that teaching and nursing are undervalued and I find that ridiculous. I would go back to VOTN's point about there being a fairly equal split in teaching, certainly in my experience from primary school right up to being now in college again, but I wouldn't be surprised if the ratio was something like 60:40 women, at least.

It does take me back to female assertiveness again. and whether that over many years has widened the gap in pay, in whatever way that manifests itself. Women that adapt masculine traits in the business world seem to get farther than women who don't. If that is the actual case, I can't see a solution. The solution is certainly not what is happening at the moment, where I have been told that a female that is less qualified than me will more likely get the job we both apply for, simply because she is female. That is not progress.
 
What a bizarre debate for a freedom of speech debate.

Trouble is, surely it is freedom of speech so I'll have to allow it!
 
Yeah, I don't think it's the first time either Heath :lol:

I do fully agree that teaching and nursing are undervalued and I find that ridiculous. I would go back to VOTN's point about there being a fairly equal split in teaching, certainly in my experience from primary school right up to being now in college again, but I wouldn't be surprised if the ratio was something like 60:40 women, at least.

It does take me back to female assertiveness again. and whether that over many years has widened the gap in pay, in whatever way that manifests itself. Women that adapt masculine traits in the business world seem to get farther than women who don't. If that is the actual case, I can't see a solution. The solution is certainly not what is happening at the moment, where I have been told that a female that is less qualified than me will more likely get the job we both apply for, simply because she is female. That is not progress.

Why should women have to become like men to succeed? It's just absolving ourselves of blame. Don't forget, it's not that long since women were expected to stay at home, and do as they were told. We still have generations with us where that was the norm. It's as much about educating women to stand up for themselves, yes, but we all have to play our part.