Forget the statues. | Vital Football

Forget the statues.

Gills 58

Vital 1st Team Regular
#2
Largely agree with that. Tokenism deflects from the real problens. Still think many of these statues should be in museums though. It would be nice to have more relevant and less contentious ones such as one to John Snow (the 19th century doctor, not C4 news presenter) for his pioneering work on cholera.

Excellent interview on C4 news last night with John Barnes btw.
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#3
People are so excited by Oxford deciding to remove another statue, when will they realize that they can't change what happened years ago.
Spend the time, money and effort to tackle modern day slavery, it is still rife in Africa, India, and yes in the UK.

https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-today/slavery-uk/
Do you really think that anybody who wants the statue removed thinks that removing the statue will change what happened in the past?

I think that rather than wanting to change the past they want to change the present and influence the future.

You're right about tackling modern slavery, that is far more important than removing a statue. But just because it is more important doesn't suddenly mean that it is pointless in removing statues from places of prominence and putting them into museums instead.

Anybody who wants to try to simply erase the past is clearly not only misguided but also very short-sighted. As we know, the past shouldn't just be rewritten.

But I don't think anybody wants to rewrite the past. This isn't about editing out our nation's shameful history, it is quite obvious that so much of the country's wealth has been created through ill-gotten gains. That cannot be changed but it can be recognised. One way of recognising this is by refusing to accept any longer that certain individuals who were once deemed worthy of celebrating and memorialising are now rather anachronistic. The nation's values and ideals have changed (and are continuing to change) and as such it makes no sense to laud individuals who were involved in activities that are now considered (but in reality always were, even if they were not at the time considered to be) immoral.

Removing statues does nothing at all to change the past but it can help to change the future purely and simply because of the symbolism it demonstrates. The Rhodes statue at Oxford has been controversial and people have been calling for it to be removed for some time, same as the Colston statue - none of this is new. All that has changed is the political climate. Right now there is a huge movement against racism. Removing statues wont on its own solve the issue of racism, but it can help the cause because of the symbolism.

Education is key. All the media attention around the removal of statues will in itself have educated many people to some extent. I wonder just how many people had never before heard of Rhodes or Colston, let alone known about their involvement in the slave trade? I also reckon that there will be some people who never really properly considered the horror of slavery before but have now become more aware of the past as a result of the last couple of weeks. This can only be a good thing.

But it is only a start. It's no good just removing statues. The statues must not be got rid of, they just need to be moved to a more appropriate place. They should not be standing proud on our streets or adorning buildings and institutions. That gives the impression that they're to be revered or celebrated. They should not be; they don't represent something to be proud of they represent a shameful past. Put them in museums and make it compulsory that schools visit the museums and children are taught the truth about how this tiny country gained such wealth and power. Teach them about how this country was the first to have an industrial revolution and how this, coupled with colonialism and the slave trade, were crucial in making Britain such a wealthy nation.
 
Last edited:

Baghdad_Rob

Vital Squad Member
#4
Largely agree with that. Tokenism deflects from the real problens. Still think many of these statues should be in museums though. It would be nice to have more relevant and less contentious ones such as one to John Snow (the 19th century doctor, not C4 news presenter) for his pioneering work on cholera.

Excellent interview on C4 news last night with John Barnes btw.
The correct spelling of the news presenter is Jon Snow without a "h". Your mistake proves you know nothing Gills58
 

Nobby_66

Vital 1st Team Regular
#6
Do you really think that anybody who wants the statue removed thinks that removing the statue will change what happened in the past?

I think that rather than wanting to change the past they want to change the present and influence the future.

You're right about tackling modern slavery, that is far more important than removing a statue. But just because it is more important doesn't suddenly mean that it is pointless in removing statues from places of prominence and putting them into museums instead.

Anybody who wants to try to simply erase the past is clearly not only misguided but also very short-sighted. As we know, the past shouldn't just be rewritten.

But I don't think anybody wants to rewrite the past. This isn't about editing out our nation's shameful history, it is quite obvious that so much of the country's wealth has been created through ill-gotten gains. That cannot be changed but it can be recognised. One way of recognising this is by refusing to accept any longer that certain individuals who were once deemed worthy of celebrating and memorialising our now rather anachronistic. The nation's values and ideals have changed (and are continuing to change) and as such it makes no sense to laud individuals who were involved in activities that are now considered (but in reality always were, even if they were not at the time considered to be) immoral.

Removing statues does nothing at all to change the past but it can help to change the future purely and simply because of the symbolism it demonstrates. The Rhodes statue at Oxford has been controversial and people have been calling for it to be removed for some time, same as the Colston statue - none of this is new. All that has changed is the political climate. Right now there is a huge movement against racism. Removing statues wont on its own solve the issue of racism, but it can help the cause because of the symbolism.

Education is key. All the media attention around the removal of statues will in itself have educated many people to some extent. I wonder just how many people had never before heard of Rhodes or Colston, let alone known about their involvement in the slave trade? I also reckon that there will be some people who never really properly considered the horror of slavery before but have now become more aware of the past as a result of the last couple of weeks. This can only be a good thing.

But it is only a start. It's no good just removing statues. The statues must not be got rid of, they just need to be moved to a more appropriate place. They should not be standing proud on our streets or adorning buildings and institutions. That gives the impression that they're to be revered or celebrated. They should not be; they don't represent something to be proud of they represent a shameful past. Put them in museums and make it compulsory that school's visit the museums and children are taught the truth about how this tiny country gained such wealth and power. Teach them about how this country was the first to have an industrial revolution and how this, coupled with colonialism and the slave trade, were crucial in making Britain such a wealthy nation.
Totally agreed with that, how can we make sure future generations don't make similar mistakes if we pretend they didn't happen before?
Although there are no statues of Hitler etc in Berlin (as mentioned in another thread) there are education centres telling whoever wants to visit, exactly what the Nazis did to The Jews, Poles etc. None of it flowered up, all quite graphic so you're left in no doubt exactly what happened.
 

Nobby_66

Vital 1st Team Regular
#8
I'm guessing you have relayed the story about having an accident before but have to confess I'm not familiar with your particular story. Did you almost choke and die on a scrabble piece?
I'm in a Toyota showroom waiting for my car to be serviced, its very quiet and I've just made everyone jump because that made me properly laugh out loud. Nearly spat my coffee out 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
 

nitram77

Vital Squad Member
#9
We should never forget the slavery of the past, both black and white, we should look to prevent the slavery of the future, but what is the point of all the effort being put into past and future when it is happening now.
How many posters have ever used drugs, do they ever question the people working in the production and supply chain. Do people buying cheap foreign goods question the people exploited in their manufacture.
I think with the number of people out on the streets at the moment, there is a real chance to change the lives of those living in slavery today, it will be a shame if we look back in 6 months and see a few less statues, but no less slaves.
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#10
We should never forget the slavery of the past, both black and white, we should look to prevent the slavery of the future, but what is the point of all the effort being put into past and future when it is happening now.
How many posters have ever used drugs, do they ever question the people working in the production and supply chain. Do people buying cheap foreign goods question the people exploited in their manufacture.
I think with the number of people out on the streets at the moment, there is a real chance to change the lives of those living in slavery today, it will be a shame if we look back in 6 months and see a few less statues, but no less slaves.
Yes, I use drugs. And yes, I do often question the production and supply chain. I only very rarely use cocaine and I'd never buy it simply because I know about fucking awful shit that goes along with its production.

I always seek to purchase 'home grown' marijuana, that's if I've not grown it myself.

I don't often take other drugs (other than alcohol) but sometimes I like to indulge in psychedelics. When I do this I'm very conscious of where the substances have come from. If I thought that loads of people had suffered for me to get the stuff it would, I'm sure, spoil the experience and I'd be much more likely to have a 'bad trip'.

You're right about the slavery that is happening now. That absolutely must be tackled and stopped, no question whatsoever. But you ask how removing the statues can help. I've already said above, it can help because of the symbolism involved with, and the educational opportunities presented by, bringing down statues of discredited historical figures.

What about turning the question around. Instead of asking what can be achieved by removing them, ask instead, what can be achieved by leaving them standing?
 

nitram77

Vital Squad Member
#11
Buddha, I hope you don't think my post was aimed at you personally, it was just about a large area of modern slavery.
As for the statues, I haven't said we shouldn't take them down, but if the financial cost and effort to achieve it could be used to free one person from slavery, I know which I would rather see.
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#12
Buddha, I hope you don't think my post was aimed at you personally, it was just about a large area of modern slavery.
As for the statues, I haven't said we shouldn't take them down, but if the financial cost and effort to achieve it could be used to free one person from slavery, I know which I would rather see.
No, don't worry, mate, I didn't think it was aimed at me personally.

BUT, I do use drugs and I do agree with you about some aspects of their production. It's one of the reasons I'd like to see all drugs legalised.
 

Gills 58

Vital 1st Team Regular
#13
I'm guessing you have relayed the story about having an accident before but have to confess I'm not familiar with your particular story. Did you almost choke and die on a scrabble piece?
Lol again. That's 3 posts in a row I've liked from you Baghdad. Has the world turned upside down?

I daren't repeat the story yet again in case Rotherhithe puts out a Fatwa on me and we don't want anyone banned for death wishes do we?;)
 

Baghdad_Rob

Vital Squad Member
#16
As for the statues, I haven't said we shouldn't take them down, but if the financial cost and effort to achieve it could be used to free one person from slavery, I know which I would rather see.
Society would be better off keeping the statues up but have an information plaque next to it explaining the good things the person did that meant the statue was originally put up plus a paragraph or two as to why the person had a problematic past by modern standards.
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#18
Society would be better off keeping the statues up but have an information plaque next to it explaining the good things the person did that meant the statue was originally put up plus a paragraph or two as to why the person had a problematic past by modern standards.
That would be one solution but I don't think it would be as effective as moving statues to a museum. I'd not be against plaques being placed where the statues stood explaining that the statue had been removed and is now available to see at such and such a museum.