For what it's worth, Keir Starmer, ... | Vital Football

For what it's worth, Keir Starmer, ...

moonay

Vital Football Legend
... I'm not sure how you're manging to get everyone talking about Labour, and it's internal wranglings, at a time when the government is open for a kicking on so many different issues.

A. FFS man, why did pissing off the left of the party seem like a good idea?

B. Also, rather than feeling scared of mentioning the damn word, why on earth aren't you holding the government to account for all the Brexit promises that are slowly turning to rat-shit?

If you're hoping that by not doing B, you'll recover some of the lost (Leave) voters, who will then out-balance any fall-out from A. No, no, no.

Stand by your principles and your promises. Do both. Deliver on what you campaigned on (and keep the voted of the left), and call out Brexit for what it is (recovering those who ill-advisedly voted Leave). Let people argue against you if they want, and if you're telling the truth, you'll wipe the floor with them.

You're not going to win the next election if you don't pull your finger out.
 
I’ll give him that joke, thought it quite amusing myself.

To be fair to Starmer, he’s obviously an intelligent chap and has had a successful legal career judging by the positions he’s held - though that doesn’t automatically assume competence or effectiveness. Regardless I just don’t understand why he’s bothering being leader of the Labour Party as it seems he’s being sabotaged at every turn.

Welcomed with chanting of support for his racist predecessor. Heckled whilst speaking about his dead Mum. Is there no fucking respect, it absolutely disgraceful to treat someone that way, whoever they are, whilst they are speaking about personal loss. The people who are doing this aren’t opposition supporters, they are members of his party. It’s beyond belief really.

Then you have rent a gob Raynor. An uncouth, hate filled individual spouting bile against millions of people. This woman (or is it now body with a vagina I’m confused) is a politician and furthermore deputy leader of a main political party. To brand people who voted for the incumbent party in office as ‘scum’ is beyond crass. In case this half wit hasn’t twigged, for Labour to win an election they need to entice a number of these voters shes branded as scum back. How she thinks she’ll achieve this by labelling them this way is beyond me. Her pathetic spin it was only
directed at the cabinet and then just the PM when that didn’t wash is utter bollocks, she was talking about everyone. To then say it was jovial northern slang is even more pathetic and again utter bollocks. Can anyone honestly say they would want a person with a potty mouth in government representing the UK on the world stage. With a deputy like this what hope does he really have. She may think that, but in her position you don’t say it.

Then you have other members of his shadow cabinet that he did appoint chucking in resignations at the conference to cause maximum embarrassment and discomfort for him. So that’s the members, his shadow appointed and his deputy all doing their best, deliberately or otherwise to hamstring him. So seriously why does he bother? Labour have no prospects of being elected. They aren’t even an effective opposition. They’re pathetic. And all this is before we talk about his obsession with identity politics saying it’s not acceptable to say women have cervix’s for example. Has he lost the fucking plot? How does he think this crap resonates with voters, alienating and offending half of them. Now he’s saying the next James Bond should be a woman? Seriously, has he read the books, does he know the character? It’s just pandering again to a woke minority. He needs to wake up and realise it won’t get him into number ten. Perhaps he would want to call it on Her Majesty’s Secret Cervix or something.
 
I fully concur with your comments re Starmer .... both his skills as an orator, and the imbecilic heckling.

I have to disagree though with your thoughts on Raynor. As I understood it, her use of the term "scum" was directed at the Tory PLP, and specifically, the PM (hence the Etonian inclusion), not those who voted for him. It was because of his (well documented) racist, homophobic and misogynistic remarks in the past. Also, I don't get how you find "scum" to be foul or potty mouthed. Distasteful maybe, but it's not swearing.

I agree that they've got to win back support from those who might traditionally vote Labour, but last time voted Tory cos of Brexit ..... hence my comments in the opening post .... and to be honest, drawing attention to how the Tory PLP behaves and performs is I think a good thing ...... but I would concede that it's better done without scoring own goals (not that I think this one is).

McDonald's resignation was probably inevitable. Starmer was always going to be in a no win situation. Appoint Left wingers, and they might embarrass him like this, or don;t appoint, and be accused of splitting the party ....... which is what he's being accused of anyway ! There's no doubt that the (far?) left of Labour would be better in their own party.

To counter your comments re Labour not being an effective opposition, I can only say they're reflecting the ineffective government ......... they're surely both the worst in living memory. If I were Starmer, I'd be asking Brexit related questions every single PMQs, repeating them over and over, together with the failings. It's the only way he'll bring out some of the unbelievable incompetence from Frost, Raab, Davis and the likes during the "negotiations". I know I paid up on that bet, but I'm not sure I should have, cos what we got was in no way a "deal". Frost even disowns it !!!

That aside .... Her Majesty’s Secret Cervix :clap::clap::clap:
 
You’re aware of my political views and that I’ve previously voted for both parties as I think balance is a good thing and it allows those losing office to reset and regroup. You’ll also know I’m an advocate of a strong opposition as it keeps a government focused. I honestly don’t think Labour are that, they are far from united and focused with all the infighting and back stabbing. There are so many important, big issues for them to get their teeth into, but as we’ve seen, this obsession over identity politics is ludicrous. How can a days talking point at a conference be about whether women have cervix’s, it’s ludicrous. As for the current government they aren’t covering themselves in glory in several areas I concur, but effectively that doesn’t seem to matter as they aren’t under pressure to perform better so just carry on regardless. It really isn’t healthy.

I disagree on Raynor, she seems an unpleasant, hate filled, incompetent individual with zero political gravitas. Regardless of who the scum term was directed toward, the narrative going forward will be it was toward conservative voters. Personally I’d say scum is an offensive, insulting term and last time she used it she was rebuked. Seems appropriate for someone like Wayne Couzens, but not toward political opponents. It doesn’t set the right example.

I just don’t see how Starmer, or anyone else can currently unite the Labour Party. They won’t come together to provide effective opposition as a basis to then to try and get elected. The factions are just too polarised and the left are more interested in political ideology than they are getting the party elected and running a country. Drastic but it’s time they split. Both can keep the Labour title but go with Labour Left or Labour Socialists and Labour Central or Labour Centrists. I think they’ll be surprised how many disgruntled Conservative voters would vote for the latter. They won’t get elected short term but this current civil war won’t result in it either. So either Starmer gets serious and purges the left or they really need to think about calling it quits and separating otherwise the Conservatives will be on office for years to come. I suspect the unions would give their funds to the left so Starmer would need to find alternative donors but if he positioned them correctly and the policies were sensible and realistic I’d say it’s achievable.
 
Generally agree with 1st para.
Completely disagree with 2nd para ... though you've now gone from foul/potty mouthed to merely labelling scum as offensive, which I acknowledge.
3rd para, I agree, it's never going to be united, which is why I think Starmer's going to aim for a Brown/Blair) oh for a John Smith !) type stance, getting back the voters who went Tory last time, and accepting the brickbats of the left.

The thing is, I can't see that anyone can disagree that this government under Johnson has made cock up after cock up, whether it be on Brexit, Covid, or just about any other subject. Hardly any minister appears competent in their role (Sunak and Wallace excepted), so Starmer has to go for the jugular ..... and that means highlighting the shambles that's been made of Brexit. I thought his "Make Brexit Work" was a good slogan ........... no reason why he can't slip in there that rejoining a single market is part of that. ;)

It'll be interesting.
 
I could accept your point on competence - or lack of within the government - and to a certain degree you may have a point. However I look to the other side and see none there either. It’s a sorry state.

In regards Raynor, I guess many people will find offence in being called scum. Taking her stance, I suspect if Boris or any other Conservative MP reciprocated and called her a slag for example for having a child at 16 - there would, quite rightly, be uproar. It wouldn’t be acceptable, even if they believed it to be true.

I admit I wasn’t as politically aware back in the Blair/Brown years, so i maybe mistaken, but I don’t recall the left wing vitriol and chasm within the party was as wide then as it is now. Perhaps it was, but I think with the advent of social media that gulf is certainly more visible and apparent now. And that’s part of the problem. I just don’t see how the warring facts can be reconciled and it’s doing the country no favours. Time someone took a radical approach to it. Will Starmer have the Political will, nouse and courage to do so? I suspect not. In which case, as you were.
 
I could accept your point on competence - or lack of within the government - and to a certain degree you may have a point. However I look to the other side and see none there either. It’s a sorry state.

In regards Raynor, I guess many people will find offence in being called scum. Taking her stance, I suspect if Boris or any other Conservative MP reciprocated and called her a slag for example for having a child at 16 - there would, quite rightly, be uproar. It wouldn’t be acceptable, even if they believed it to be true.

I admit I wasn’t as politically aware back in the Blair/Brown years, so i maybe mistaken, but I don’t recall the left wing vitriol and chasm within the party was as wide then as it is now. Perhaps it was, but I think with the advent of social media that gulf is certainly more visible and apparent now. And that’s part of the problem. I just don’t see how the warring facts can be reconciled and it’s doing the country no favours. Time someone took a radical approach to it. Will Starmer have the Political will, nouse and courage to do so? I suspect not. In which case, as you were.

Point taken re competence in Labour ....... I suspect you may have a point with the "younger generation", ...... I can't believe that Yvette Cooper hasn't got a higher profile role.

Scum vs Tank topped bum boys, letterboxes, melon smile picaninnies ....I'm sure there are more.

Re the Blair/Brown years, yeah, they were fighting off the last of Militant (Derek Hatton etc), and MPs like Corbyn, Skinner, Benn, Livingstone, Dalyell, Ruddock. Good point re social meeja though.

I thought his very clear declaration that his aim is to win, not unite the party was a step in the right direction. As you say, there's little point in the idealism of the left if you're never going to be able to implement those ideals. Better work to get the win, and negotiate influence.
 
Just seen that Labour supporter Owen Jones trending on Twitter with a link to his article in the guardian calling Starmer dishonest, unprincipled, uncharismatic, and unelectable. The Conservatives must be pissing themselves laughing. As I said earlier they are trying to hobble him from every angle and Jones proves you are correct - the left put idealism above office and I just don’t understand that stance.
 
Haha. The thing is, I'm not sure that anyone actually like Jones ... certainly not the left.

He's just a little jumped up, supercilious twerp.

I remember the spat between him and Andrew Neil .... belting stuff.
 
He’s a petulant man child. I have seen that interview, very amusing, though thought Neil did well to to keep his cool.

There was one he did on Sky for the press preview. He had a tantrum mid discussion and walked off set, with the other guest Julie Hartley Brewer trying her best to calm him down as a Mum would to a 4 year having a paddy. It’s very funny.
 
For the purpose of balance ... yes, of course Starmer should resign if he's issued with a fine ... but given that they weren't under full lockdown at that time, and they (supposedly) carried on working afterwards, it's (presumably) unlikely that'll happen.

If it does though, I'd expect Starmer to refuse to pay, and fight it in court if he can prove his side.
 
The Labour line is they are confident he won’t be fined - very astute given Durham Constabulary don’t retrospectively issue FPNs for this offence - not that he isn’t guilty.

In isolation a complete waste of Police resources imo, though his constant pontificating on this over the last few months, they probably don’t have much choice. I doubt he’ll resign, despite the complete hypocrisy.

Sir Kneeler and the Ginger Growler in the mud. Lovely stuff, though sounds like a movie on the Adult Channel.
 
The Labour line is they are confident he won’t be fined - very astute given Durham Constabulary don’t retrospectively issue FPNs for this offence - not that he isn’t guilty.

In isolation a complete waste of Police resources imo, though his constant pontificating on this over the last few months, they probably don’t have much choice. I doubt he’ll resign, despite the complete hypocrisy.

Sir Kneeler and the Ginger Growler in the mud. Lovely stuff, though sounds like a movie on the Adult Channel.

If they don't intend to issue a fine, you have to wonder why they're looking into it again ... based on the "new" evidence.

Presumably, if they did indeed continue working, I suppose it's reasonable to expect they can show evidence based on a timestamp - emails sent, files saved etc. Also, I doubt they're going to get 30(ish) people all to lie to the police ... or are they ?
 
If they don't intend to issue a fine, you have to wonder why they're looking into it again ... based on the "new" evidence.

Presumably, if they did indeed continue working, I suppose it's reasonable to expect they can show evidence based on a timestamp - emails sent, files saved etc. Also, I doubt they're going to get 30(ish) people all to lie to the police ... or are they ?

Apparently their policy is to not issue them retrospectively for breaches - if so seems a waste of time as I said. I only assume it’s down to political pressure - though given the pcc was there, apparently, on the grounds of transparency, I’m surprised they haven’t asked a neighbouring force to investigate it.

I guess you don’t order 30 curries for 6 people so seems there maybe something in it. Most likely a social media post, replied to by others and then there’s a pretty strong evidential chain. As with most things, it’s not the original act that creates the controversy, it’s the subsequent cover up and lies. Strip that away and it’s a minor breach of some new legislation which was probably done without a conscious effort to do so. (Some of the rumoured number ten parties PM wasn’t at went too far I admit)

I get it’s politics, but I still find it blown out of all proportion. I guess the moral of the story is that those in greenhouses should be careful where they throw rocks.
 
Interesting revelation about who took the original video
Son of James Delingpole, who is a real libertine nut job (mates with Gove, writes for Breitbart)

Additionally I think the 6 curries and 24 poppadoms is a bit excessive 😀
 
Nothing to see here ... move on please ... nothing to see .. no cake was eaten.

Not sure why anyone thought anything different.
:whist: