Five Substitutes | Vital Football

Five Substitutes

mozzer59

Vital Squad Member
#1
Individual Leagues are being allowed to decide if they want to use five substitutes next season! Already being condemned by the pundits! Three is more than enough even now!
 

Nobby_66

Vital 1st Team Regular
#3
I don't really see the reason for this. I sort of get it when returning from lockdown and players haven't been in full training for long so potential injuries may be a problem but that won't be the case when next season starts.
 

Tarian

Vital Squad Member
#4
3 or 5 Subs bothers me less than reduced numbers for red cards.
Football should be 11 v 11.

By all means send off a player for violent conduct - as long as one of the Subs is used too replace.

If the authorities want to increase suspensions or fines, by all means.
Just stop spoiling games with 11 v 10.
 

mozzer59

Vital Squad Member
#5
3 or 5 Subs bothers me less than reduced numbers for red cards.
Football should be 11 v 11.

By all means send off a player for violent conduct - as long as one of the Subs is used too replace.

If the authorities want to increase suspensions or fines, by all means.
Just stop spoiling games with 11 v 10.
That is utter nonsense! Violent conduct deserves to be punished with a red and the team made to play with ten men!
 

LockdownLife

Vital Reserves Team
#8
3 or 5 Subs bothers me less than reduced numbers for red cards.
Football should be 11 v 11.

By all means send off a player for violent conduct - as long as one of the Subs is used too replace.

If the authorities want to increase suspensions or fines, by all means.
Just stop spoiling games with 11 v 10.
What?

Never heard this argument from anyone, ever. You might be a visionary but I can't see how it makes it any better.
 

chris who

Vital Football Hero
#9
3 or 5 Subs bothers me less than reduced numbers for red cards.
Football should be 11 v 11.

By all means send off a player for violent conduct - as long as one of the Subs is used too replace.

If the authorities want to increase suspensions or fines, by all means.
Just stop spoiling games with 11 v 10.
So if I kick a player in the head my manager should be able to make a change and bring on someone else who can break someone's leg.Why not just get rid of a referee altogether and let's combine kick boxing and football into one sport.You can imagine the half time team talks ."I am going to take you off soon.So before I do take their number 9 out of the game". Defender "What do you mean boss ".Boss:"Next time he gets near the ball kick him in the nuts.I have the axe murderer on the bench I want to get him on".
 
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Trashbat

Vital Squad Member
#10
So if I kick a player in the head my manager should be able to make a change and bring on someone else who can break someone's leg.Why not just get rid of a referee altogether and let's combine kick boxing and football into one sport.You can imagine the half time team talks ."I am going to take you off soon.So before I do take their number 9 out of the game". Defender "What do you mean boss ".Boss:"Next time he gets near the ball kick him in the nuts.I have the axe murderer on the bench I want to get him on".
Tarian has never been one for reasoned logic.
 

chris who

Vital Football Hero
#11
Tarian has never been one for reasoned logic.
You can imagine the premier league scouts outside wormwood scrubs can't you?Hull could have used a different strategy against Wigan having gone seven down. They could have used their subs to take out the referee and his two assistants.
Nobbies lot would definitely be busy even if their were still no crowds.
 

OneSirKeefy

Vital 1st Team Regular
#12
Funnily enough, Australian Rules football uses Tarians logic. Even further actually. A player that has committed a serious offence is just put “on report” but plays out the game. He’s dealt with during the next week and usually cops a few games suspension. The idea being to keep the game equal numbers. And also not penalise a team for an incorrect sending off.

Thing is, it doesn’t penalise that team at all on the day. Even if the foul play causes the opponents to lose a player through injury. All it does is helps the upcoming opponents if it’s a decent player that is suspended.

I’m definitely not for it in football.
 

Tarian

Vital Squad Member
#14
So if I kick a player in the head my manager should be able to make a change and bring on someone else who can break someone's leg.
Why not just get rid of a referee altogether and let's combine kick boxing and football into one sport.
You can imagine the half time team talks ."I am going to take you off soon.So before I do take their number 9 out of the game". Defender "What do you mean boss ".Boss:"Next time he gets near the ball kick him in the nuts.I have the axe murderer on the bench I want to get him on".
Argument by extreme ???

As I said:
"If the authorities want to increase suspensions or fines, by all means.
Just stop spoiling games with 11 v 10.
"

....or as yesterday, Norwich down to 9 versus Burnley ??


Luis Suarez was suspended for nine matches and banned for four months "from any football activity" for biting Italy defender Giorgio Chiellini.

Why not have longer suspensions and bigger fines for perpetrators ?
Maybe Suarez should have been banned for a season ?

Meanwhile, spectators have to put up with a sterile half-hour (or more) because of two yellow cards.

(Trashbat: There's some "reason and logic". By all means disagree with the conclusion.)
 

chris who

Vital Football Hero
#15
Argument by extreme ???

As I said:
"If the authorities want to increase suspensions or fines, by all means.
Just stop spoiling games with 11 v 10.
"

....or as yesterday, Norwich down to 9 versus Burnley ??


Luis Suarez was suspended for nine matches and banned for four months "from any football activity" for biting Italy defender Giorgio Chiellini.

Why not have longer suspensions and bigger fines for perpetrators ?
Maybe Suarez should have been banned for a season ?

Meanwhile, spectators have to put up with a sterile half-hour (or more) because of two yellow cards.

(Trashbat: There's some "reason and logic". By all means disagree with the conclusion.)
You use the Norwich games as a example. What if the injuries were far more serious broke leg for example.Burnley lose two player possibly for their whole careers. Meanwhile their rivals for a place in Europe (I know they will not get into Europe)get to play Norwich without their best players.Also a dangerous player stays on the pitch who has quite possibly lost it or gets subbed which amounts to the same thing.The referee has to have the final sanction.There are possibly too many sending off's but that is a different debate.
Personally if they ever wanted to change the rules I would in principle be in favour of referee's being allowed to slow two yellows for minor offences without sending a player off .That I can see a argument for.As often a player gets away with a minor second offence because he has already been booked.
 

PhilK66

Vital 1st Team Regular
#16
Let's just go the whole hog. Have the entire squad available on the field and bench and interchange throughout the match like ice hockey.
 

Tarian

Vital Squad Member
#17
Also a dangerous player stays on the pitch.....
......who has quite possibly lost it or gets subbed which amounts to the same thing.
Have you misunderstood my point ?
I never suggested a "dangerous player should stay on the pitch".
Send him off.
Throw the book at him.
If he broke someone's leg with a reckless challenge - suspend him for half a season and fine him 6 month's wages (or whatever)

Just allow the game to continue 11 v 11 - after a forced substitution.
(How is that "the same thing" as "stays on the pitch" ?)

If people don't agree that's fine ... but please don't miss the balancing point about upping the punishment for violent conduct.
 

chris who

Vital Football Hero
#18
Have you misunderstood my point ?
I never suggested a "dangerous player should stay on the pitch".
Send him off.
Throw the book at him.
If he broke someone's leg with a reckless challenge - suspend him for half a season and fine him 6 month's wages (or whatever)

Just allow the game to continue 11 v 11 - after a forced substitution.
(How is that "the same thing" as "stays on the pitch" ?)

If people don't agree that's fine ... but please don't miss the balancing point about upping the punishment for violent conduct.
So please tell what happens if a manager has used all of his subs at the point someone has to be replaced?
 

Buddha

Vital 1st Team Regular
#19
If it were anybody other than Tarian posting this nonsense I'd suspect a wind up. But you know what? I reckon he's for real!

It fits in with his Gradgrindian way of interpreting the world; the 'guilty' player would be retrospectively punished for his 'crime', and the 'innocent' supporters don't get 'punished' by having to watch a game played between two teams with unequal numbers. It's certainly a radical suggestion but it is also a shit suggestion.

He fails to recognise (or chooses to ignore) the emotional aspect of a sending off. Whether it be a player on your team or an opposition player who gets the red card, the emotional response is usually intense. Sometimes you'll feel angry, other times you'll feel jubilant. Sometimes the sending off will inspire confidence that your team can now turn things around or more easily hold into a lead, other times it will induce fear that a lead will be lost or that any hope of winning has evaporated now your team is down to ten men.

For a sending off is quite a big deal. It doesn't happen in every game, or even in most, but when it does it often (but not always) changes the game. Although not always in the way you'd expect it to. How many times have we seen the team with ten men push on and then win a game from the position of apparent disadvantage?

The player (and indirectly the team and the supporters) will and do get punished retrospectively because of the ensuing suspension - and as you say, if it is an exceptional offence (such as the Cantona kung-fu kick on a racist supporter or Luis Suarez biting an opponent) a much longer suspension can be imposed. But the biggest and most immediate punishment is the reduction of the team numbers during the remainder of that particular game. Every player knows this and knows that if they lose their cool they could cost their team the game. And sometimes the stakes are very high. Think about David Beckham's sending off against Argentina. If he'd not left the pitch we might have won that day because we so nearly did with just ten men.

And that of course, leads onto the other random factor, the referee. Sometimes his decision will be a bad one, occasionally so bad that it is later overturned and the suspension lifted. But this can effect teams and supporters in a negative or a positive manner and just so long as the referee is always impartial then such poor decisions will sometimes favour your team and other times go against your team, such is the random factor. Of course, sometimes the supporters might be able to influence the referee's decision but that too, I think, is an important aspect of the game.

I think in Tarian's world everything would be exact and precise and there would be little, if any, room for emotion and/or imagination. And without those things there is no beauty. Football is the beautiful game but proposals (such as VAR and Tarian's suggestion), though they might be made with an honourable intention of removing injustice from the game, simply remove some of the beauty.
 

chris who

Vital Football Hero
#20
If it were anybody other than Tarian posting this nonsense I'd suspect a wind up. But you know what? I reckon he's for real!

It fits in with his Gradgrindian way of interpreting the world; the 'guilty' player would be retrospectively punished for his 'crime', and the 'innocent' supporters don't get 'punished' by having to watch a game played between two teams with unequal numbers. It's certainly a radical suggestion but it is also a shit suggestion.

He fails to recognise (or chooses to ignore) the emotional aspect of a sending off. Whether it be a player on your team or an opposition player who gets the red card, the emotional response is usually intense. Sometimes you'll feel angry, other times you'll feel jubilant. Sometimes the sending off will inspire confidence that your team can now turn things around or more easily hold into a lead, other times it will induce fear that a lead will be lost or that any hope of winning has evaporated now your team is down to ten men.

For a sending off is quite a big deal. It doesn't happen in every game, or even in most, but when it does it often (but not always) changes the game. Although not always in the way you'd expect it to. How many times have we seen the team with ten men push on and then win a game from the position of apparent disadvantage?

The player (and indirectly the team and the supporters) will and do get punished retrospectively because of the ensuing suspension - and as you say, if it is an exceptional offence (such as the Cantona kung-fu kick on a racist supporter or Luis Suarez biting an opponent) a much longer suspension can be imposed. But the biggest and most immediate punishment is the reduction of the team numbers during the remainder of that particular game. Every player knows this and knows that if they lose their cool they could cost their team the game. And sometimes the stakes are very high. Think about David Beckham's sending off against Argentina. If he'd not left the pitch we might have won that day because we so nearly did with just ten men.

And that of course, leads onto the other random factor, the referee. Sometimes his decision will be a bad one, occasionally so bad that it is later overturned and the suspension lifted. But this can effect teams and supporters in a negative or a positive manner and just so long as the referee is always impartial then such poor decisions will sometimes favour your team and other times go against your team, such is the random factor. Of course, sometimes the supporters might be able to influence the referee's decision but that too, I think, is an important aspect of the game.

I think in Tarian's world everything would be exact and precise and there would be little, if any, room for emotion and/or imagination. And without those things there is no beauty. Football is the beautiful game but proposals (such as VAR and Tarian's suggestion), though they might be made with an honourable intention of removing injustice from the game, simply remove some of the beauty.
A great post I fully agree with.